WANTING TO BUY PROPERTY IN BATAM

[pantaiema]

I say let the people try marijuana, and make their own decision if they like it, or want to use it medicinally.
Saying it is on the level as Narcotics, is an out and out lie!

Because ordinary people are not experts in this field and lack proper training, they may not be as equipped as doctors to recognize the potential side effects.

It is the same thing if you allow people without consent such as children to make decision on their own on dangerous subject.

 

[centurion]

While I support the idea that people should be able to purchase land in foreign countries, I am not sure if there is an international law that universally governs this, akin to universal human rights. My understanding is that the reciprocal agreements regarding land ownership are typically based on bilateral treaties between nations. So such reciprocal right will only take effect if both countries mutually agree, but they are not universally applicable.

A good example is the Philippines; it has a policy allowing foreign nationals to purchase land, but only if their home country grants the same right to the Philippine citizens. But as I understand it, Indonesia does not have any bilateral agreements with other countries regarding land ownership.

I have long criticized the Indonesian government and culture for cherry-picking policies when it suits them. What they have missed here is that other countries could do retaliation, so careful assessment will need to be done.

Beyond land ownership, the issue of the right to work is another example. In many developed countries, individuals gain the right to work if they marry a local citizen or hold permanent residency. In contrast, in Indonesia, even if you have been married for years and living in the country, you cannot work without obtaining a work permit.

If Indonesia does not allow real estate for Italian citizens, Italy will not allow real estate for Italian citizens. This would be the reciprocity.

 

[pantaiema]

If Indonesia does not allow real estate for Italian citizens, Italy will not allow real estate for Italian citizens. This would be the reciprocity.

Yes, Italy has the right to enforce the reciprocal measures outlined in its own agrarian law regarding land ownership. However, it is worth noting that other developed countries do not have similar reciprocal provisions for land ownership on their own law.

As mentioned in previous discussions, some Indonesians own properties, including land and buildings, in countries like Australia, the United States, or other parts of Europe.

 

[marcus]

... in Indonesia, even if you have been married for years and living in the country, you cannot work without obtaining a work permit.

Not exactly . Resident spouse of Indonesian can work informally without a work permit , according to a verbal guide from Manpower Government officers .

The Indonesian Immigration Law does state that resident foreigners married to Indonesians can work , but the above mentioned Government officers said that the limitation in the Indonesian Manpower Law need to be considered .

 

[pantaiema]

Not exactly . Resident spouse of Indonesian can work informally without a work permit , according to a verbal guide from Manpower Government officers .

The Indonesian Immigration Law does state that resident foreigners married to Indonesians can work , but the above mentioned Government officers said that the limitation in the Indonesian Manpower Law need to be considered .

This topic has been discussed numerous times on this forum and other forums. But the most important point here this is not just personal interpretation, but it has been confirmed by the Minister of Manpower and immigration through reports of people sharing personal experiences.
This thread is just one of many examples.

Spouse sponsered kitap work

Hi all, I'm a long time lurker but new to posting so please forgive any mistakes. I have looked everywhere and found some great discussions on here but nothing that really suits my situation. Sorry i know this subject has been covered so many times here with so many conflicting opinions. So i...

www.expatindo.org

I am quoting the law which I believe you are referring to:
The Immigration law UU_No_6_2011 article 61 "Holders of Limited Stay Permits as referred to in Article 52 letters e and f and holders of Permanent Stay Permits as referred to in Article 54 paragraph (1) letters b and d could undertake work and/or business to MEET the NEEDS of supporting lifeline of their families ". I have highlighted the important wording. And people has been sharing their personal experience about this which just to emphasize that it is not the same you could free to work in any sector like in other countries the spouse of foreign citizen where you could work with very little restriction. Working informal helping your spouse managing 'warung' without getting paid, is not the same with formally working like in national or multi national companies. For this you will still need IMTA/RPTKA

But this restriction has been clearly spelled in E31A VITAS (ex C317) e.g the spouse sponsored VITAS, so no more ambiguity.

"With this visa you can:

• Carry out employment-related activities or attending education, as long as it has been reported to Immigration -using the multiple activity reporting process).
• You are prohibited from selling goods or services.
• You are prohibited from working by receiving compensation, wages, or any similar from individuals or companies in Indonesia, unless reported to immigration (using the multiple activity reporting process)."

 

[marcus]

... in Indonesia, even if you have been married for years and living in the country, you cannot work without obtaining a work permit ... the most important point here this is not just personal interpretation, but it has been confirmed by the Minister of Manpower and immigration through reports ...

I just finished reading the link you mentioned in post 25 above and didn't see any post that 100% confirms what you wrote in post no.20 and repeated here : "...cannot work without obtaining a work permit."

... Working informal helping your spouse managing 'warung' without getting paid, is not the same with formally working like in national or multi national companies ...

Yes , is not the same . But in both cases the foreigner is working , when informally , the foreigner does not need a work permit (as mentioned in the article below) .

Note : "foreigner" mentioned in this post is "foreigner married to Indonesian holding KITAS or KITAP"

---------------------------------

From http://percaindonesia.com/catatan-so...-7-maret-2015/ - discussion between 1 Manpower officer & 1 Immigration officer and Perca/Indonesian Mixed Marriage Organization)

Poster's Notes :

• Below is a free translation of the article
• The link to the article is not working/the article is not there anymore , I don't know why . People interested to confirm the above article please contact PERCA at https://www.percaindonesia.com/kontak/

[.....
A) Holders of KITAS/KITAP sponsored by Indonesian spouse are allowed to work in a company ... having a work permit .
B) Foreigner workers cannot work in two different places (the same profession or different) EXCEPT investor director / commissioner of PMA (If one works in three places , 3 work permits are required .
C) If the activities of the foreign worker are in more than 1 place / province then he/she must have inter-provincial work permit .
D) Case: Foreigner of a mixed marriage with cuisine chef background want to open a small café, with a small seating area is classified as a small business and does not require a work permit . When this business grows crowded and large, than it is necessary to have operating permits from the relevant authorities . When the businesses becomes a legal entity, then this foreign worker must have a work permit .
E) Case: Foreign of a mixed marriage is already retired. Enters Indonesia with VOA and becomes an investor in a hotel in Bali. Once in a while he does work behind the scenes such as checks on the financial control department. With such conditions, it means the foreigner has been conducting work in Indonesia and must have KITAS and work permit , because even not all the time he/she is working .
F) A foreigner in a mixed marriage with KITAS sponsored by the Indonesian spouse . Working from home and having online business . Does not have an office and legal business such as PT or PMA . Because this foreigner is conducting work even though he only works online so this foreigner must have a work permit . This foreigner also cannot sign work contracts in Indonesia on behalf of himself/herself .
G) A foreigner who works and own business as an acupuncturist, must obtain an official recommendation from the local health office before doing business and work activities. If already have a recommendation from the relevant authorities, the foreign must have a work permit to be able to work in Indonesia .
H) A foreigner holder of KITAS/KITAP sponsored by spouse is allowed to work in Indonesia. The need of a work permit is to be seen from what the job is , workings for a legal entity or not, small or large business .

CONCLUSION:

Although the Immigration Law no. 6 of 2011 Article 61 states that the holder of a KITAS/KITAP can work and/or do business to make ends meet for him/her and/ for his/her family, the foreigner still has to refer back to the Labour Law no.13 year 2003 and Labour Regulations , which essentially means that a foreign worker in a mixed marriage is allowed to work without a work permit if in the informal sector, freelance or in a small family business which is not a legal entity. When working in a legal entity then the foreigner MUST have a work permit.]

 

[pantaiema]

The restriction to work on spouse sponsored Visa has been clearly spelled out in E31A VITAS (ex C317) so no more ambiguity or personal interpretation is required.
https://evisa.imigrasi.go.id/front/faq/5eaebbff-d38d-4e12-959d-55c71dabc80a

"With this visa you can:

• Carry out employment-related activities or attending education, as long as it has been reported to Immigration -using the multiple activity reporting process).
• You are prohibited from selling goods or services.
• You are prohibited from working by receiving compensation, wages, or any similar from individuals or companies in Indonesia, unless reported to immigration (using the multiple activity reporting process).

CONCLUSION:
that a foreign worker in a mixed marriage is allowed to work without a work permit if IN THE INFORMAL SECTOR, freelance or have a small business which is not a legal entity. When working in a legal entity then the foreigner MUST have a work permit.]

Well, this is what I have been saying is not it ??. Also working vs working receiving compensation, wages, or any similar from individuals or companies in Indonesia are two different things. People could work without receiving any financial compensation. A few examples; doing a voluntarily work for NGOs, helping their wni spouse to manage 'warung'.

Based on the statement from immigration above the foreign spouse could work but cannot receive financial compensation, wages, or the like. But in the informal sector the business is often not registered, so whether the foreign spouse get financial compensation or not will not be known until someone comes forward to testify in the court. Although highly unlikely as both parties will suffer but it could still happen (god forbid) in the bitter divorce.

 

[marcus]

I didn't find the PERCA article in their website , at https://www.percaindonesia.com/sosi...erja-asing-dalam-konteks-perkawinan-campuran/ they now just say :

... The event with the topic of Socialization of Foreign Worker Permit Regulations in the Context of Mixed Marriages was organized by PerCa Bali in collaboration with the Bali Provincial Manpower and Transmigration Office.The socialization event held at the Berry Biz Hotel, Jalan Sunset Road, Kuta on Saturday, March 7, 2015, turned out to receive extraordinary enthusiasm from PerCa Bali members and other mixed marriages. There were around 87 people who attended this event.The event was opened by MC Merry Linda Sihombing, who is also the Events section in the PerCa Bali management. Present as the presenter of the socialization material was Mrs. Manila Ayupijaya, ST, M.Si who is a Middle Work Introduction Functional Officer from the Bali Provincial Manpower and Transmigration Office. Mrs. Manila delivered the material in a very interesting and light manner.
The discussion session was dynamic and very interactive. There were many questions raised by the participants which were basically still problems of mixed marriage families whose spouses work in Indonesia. There was a lot of confusing information circulating which was finally answered in the question and answer session. It was clear that foreign nationals holding KITAS or KITAP sponsored by a wife or husband may work in Indonesia to support their families. It was also increasingly clear about what jobs require an IMTA and what do not. Through this discussion, Mrs. Manila clearly stated that jobs under a legal entity must have an IMTA. Another thing that was also clarified was that a foreign worker holding a KITAS or KITAP sponsored by a wife or husband may not work in more than one place with the same profession. The discussion session, moderated by Christina Sitompul who is currently the Coordinator of PerCa Bali, went smoothly so that time did not feel like it was flying fast. Also present at this socialization event as a resource person was Mr. Candra Wahyu Hidayat, Amd, Im, SH who serves as Head of the Immigration Status Determination Sub-Section of the Class I Denpasar Immigration Office.

 

[marcus]

... https://evisa.imigrasi.go.id/front/faq/5eaebbff-d38d-4e12-959d-55c71dabc80a
"With this visa you can:

• Carry out employment-related activities or attending education, as long as it has been reported to Immigration -using the multiple activity reporting process).
• You are prohibited from selling goods or services.
• You are prohibited from working by receiving compensation, wages, or any similar from individuals or companies in Indonesia, unless reported to immigration (using the multiple activity reporting process).

In my view the above does not specifically clarify .

Well, this is what I have been saying is not it ??.

You may have said elsewhere , but not in your post no.20 where you said "...cannot work without obtaining a work permit." ...

Also working vs working receiving compensation, wages, or any similar from individuals or companies in Indonesia are two different things.

When the foreigner works informally , for example , in his/her Indonesian spouse's small business , the income is received by the family business , so indirectly the foreigner is being paid .

... But in the informal sector the business is often not registered, ...

Yes , you are correct .
But although the "Conclusion" (assumed said by the Manpower Department officer) explicit states "informal sector" and "not a legal entity" , I guess it should be stated only "micro & small businesses" (which are not allowed to get work permit to foreigners) , because :

• the Indonesian Government is now trying to push informal business to become formal/registered/legal business , one of the reasons (I guess) is because informal business does not pay taxes ;
• formal/legal business cannot sub-contract services from an informal business (I guess) .

-------------------------

From https://www.gresnews.com/berita/tips/85704-dasar-hukum-usaha-informal/
Title : Legal Basis for Informal Business , Apr 2014 - free translation
Informal Business is a type of business that is carried out without having the legality to run as a business entity ...
We often see informal businesses carried out by individuals, including mobile drink vendors, street vendors, or food vendors who go around the neighborhood .

In law, informal businesses are also referred to as small businesses. As regulated in Article 1 number 2 of Law No. 20 of 2008 ...

-------------------------

From https://alamisharia.co.id/blogs/bisnis/manfaat-memiliki-naungan-legal-bagi-umkm/ , June 2023 - free translation
Title : 7 Benefits of Having Legal Protection for MSMEs and How to Get It
... The Job Creation Law (no.11 Year 2020) is expected to protect and facilitate MSMEs (micro/small/medium businesses) to enter the formal sector through ease of establishment, licensing, and coaching ...