videographer & photographer freelancer spouse Kitas

TiborD

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Hi ALL I know it's not a new thing,it was already mentioned before....
Having my 3 spouse kitas I decided to stay in Indonesia permanently and work as a freelancer photographer.... Here is the thing ,I don't know if there is a way to do it more legally than freelancer,but I am sure I can't get IMTA , I went to my local immigration office and have spoken to kepala immigrasi who told me I can work here as a photographer without the problem.we didn't really go deeply what kind of photography and for who I would be doing it ,he generally said it's okay. Strangely immigration has nothing to do with work ,it's a manpower thing but he said no worries,, well I am little bit hesitating , little scare it's just one of their games to bust me later on and try to get money out of me, because he told me I am allowed to work only verbally. So what's your opinion on this one... Should I trust him and start my projects as a freelancer, I know there is few expats photographer in Bali , doing it openly so I wonder how ,thank you for your advice on this
 

snpark

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You are right. It's nothing to do with immigration. It is manpower / employment issue. And I reckon they will say no. But it is a grey issue because your wife is your sponsor and you are allowed to do certain paid work to provide for her. Like working in HER shop etc. Whether freelance photography counts I'm not sure as it would be sort of undercover. A risky grey area. I certainly wouldn't advertising to do weddings etc
 

Jamu

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As snpark says, it's sort of a grey area, but one that many of us find ourselves in. Having seen arguments for and against on this board and on the Law and Regulations in Indonesia FB page, the balance of views seems to be that freelancing and consulting in areas that don't require a special license is probably ok - to my recollection there have been exactly zero reports on this board of trouble with immigration reported by someone on a spouse Kitas who was doing this activity (freelancing or consulting). Of course, if you compete head to head with locals in bread and butter services (like doing wedding photography), they may report you out of jealousy and you could then be the test case that we've all been waiting for! Seriously, whatever you do, it's probably best to keep a low profile and try not to piss anyone off. You should be fine. And if you do earn money, pay your taxes. It may help your case if it ever comes to that.
 

fastpitch17

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As stated above it is certainly a grey area and there has been many responses elsewhere that say this or that and most are just personal feelings or interpretations. If you want to have a definitive answer, why not just go visit the Manpower office and get their answers. Just make sure you get names of people spoken to, just in case. If you can get something in writing, do that.
 

TiborD

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Well I went to immigration again with my wife and kepala immigrasi told me ,don't worry it's ok to be freelancer photographer,I have asked him about manpower office and he repeated mentioning article 6 from 2011 that we have right to do some freelancing job. ,if immigration comes to you just mention my name ... He said ,,,,Well maybe they want to set me up and I pay for my naivity later on. Maybe. I haven't heard about anyone to go to court and being test case , personally I think it won't happen otherwise they would shoot themselves to leg , because they have grey zone ,, they have law saying you can work providing for your family and manpower law saying you can't . We are not tka ,we are spouses , and test case would be known on international level challenging their own legal system, with big holes and they know that fact, they won't allow that to happen,
 

TiborD

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As snpark says, it's sort of a grey area, but one that many of us find ourselves in. Having seen arguments for and against on this board and on the Law and Regulations in Indonesia FB page, the balance of views seems to be that freelancing and consulting in areas that don't require a special license is probably ok - to my recollection there have been exactly zero reports on this board of trouble with immigration reported by someone on a spouse Kitas who was doing this activity (freelancing or consulting). Of course, if you compete head to head with locals in bread and butter services (like doing wedding photography), they may report you out of jealousy and you could then be the test case that we've all been waiting for! Seriously, whatever you do, it's probably best to keep a low profile and try not to piss anyone off. You should be fine. And if you do earn money, pay your taxes. It may help your case if it ever comes to that.
Agree ,just don't know what to pay tax for , because freelancer is not allowed to make contract and bills , basically he doesn't exist, it's a grey zone, actually not grey zone but Indonesian black hole :)
 

snpark

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Again, we told you / advised you that it is nothing to do with Immigration and you are better off going to Manpower to ask such questions. Of course immigration can say anything, but since that is not their department, take anything they say with a pinch of salt especially if they say yes no problem. Maybe it isn't a problem, but as suggested you are better off going to the right department and asking them to make sure.
Pointless going back to the same place when you have already been advised to ask with Manpower - they are the ones who deal with work permits / IMTA etc

Tax card NPWP is for you to pay tax on the money you earn. If you are a freelancer you will still be getting paid, so you need to declare what you earn and pay tax on it.

Contracts and bills are irrelevant really. Just fyi.

If you have the money just make a small PT with your wife, you can be a director, get a KITAS from there, pay yourself $2,500 a month and pay tax on that 10% a month ($250, the minimum that a Director can earn) and then get your NPWP etc which means you can also get credit card here too, BPJS etc etc

That way you are totally 100% legal here, official, with all the right cards and ID's etc

The company can be anything really, maybe catering, wedding services, and you as a consultant or international marketing? Something like that,

Just an idea.
 

TiborD

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Again, we told you / advised you that it is nothing to do with Immigration and you are better off going to Manpower to ask such questions. Of course immigration can say anything, but since that is not their department, take anything they say with a pinch of salt especially if they say yes no problem. Maybe it isn't a problem, but as suggested you are better off going to the right department and asking them to make sure.
Pointless going back to the same place when you have already been advised to ask with Manpower - they are the ones who deal with work permits / IMTA etc

Tax card NPWP is for you to pay tax on the money you earn. If you are a freelancer you will still be getting paid, so you need to declare what you earn and pay tax on it.

Contracts and bills are irrelevant really. Just fyi.

If you have the money just make a small PT with your wife, you can be a director, get a KITAS from there, pay yourself $2,500 a month and pay tax on that 10% a month ($250, the minimum that a Director can earn) and then get your NPWP etc which means you can also get credit card here too, BPJS etc etc

That way you are totally 100% legal here, official, with all the right cards and ID's etc

The company can be anything really, maybe catering, wedding services, and you as a consultant or international marketing? Something like that,

Just an idea.
thank you for your idea man,,you mean get an imta from pt? right ,,, by the way still i cannot imagine how you would pay tax from your freelancing job which is basically not allowed , actually allowed but only verbally in favor of UU 6 2011 law ,which contradicts with manpower law, because they have a big hole in their law and legal system , pay tax based on what if you have no bills , just pay tax as you wish for something or what ? you have to keep low profile,,,to perform frelance job you would basically get convicted of crime by yourself that you work wihthout permit and receive certain income ,,,, ,
 
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Jamu

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It would be interesting to hear Manpower's take on UU 6 2011, Article 61, as it is actually an immigration law. Also, since it is not possible to be a TKA as a freelancer/consultant without an employer, I wonder how Manpower would be relevant to the discussion? In their world, there is only TKA, with all the rules and regulations that apply to that status. If one were to be a 'test case', I think it's better to be in line with Immigration's interpretation, even if not with Manpower's, as Immigration is the authority issuing the all important stay permits. In any case, UU 6 2011 is a national law passed by parliament, and it should overrule any conflicting regulation or rule passed by another government ministry. So, now that all is clear as mud, I guess we are back to needing a test case to have certainty. Any volunteers? ;)
 

TiborD

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It would be interesting to hear Manpower's take on UU 6 2011, Article 61, as it is actually an immigration law. Also, since it is not possible to be a TKA as a freelancer/consultant without an employer, I wonder how Manpower would be relevant to the discussion? In their world, there is only TKA, with all the rules and regulations that apply to that status. If one were to be a 'test case', I think it's better to be in line with Immigration's interpretation, even if not with Manpower's, as Immigration is the authority issuing the all important stay permits. In any case, UU 6 2011 is a national law passed by parliament, and it should overrule any conflicting regulation or rule passed by another government ministry. So, now that all is clear as mud, I guess we are back to needing a test case to have certainty. Any volunteers? ;)
proper nasi campur , which Indonesians love so much, ;-)
 

dafluff

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Some thoughts in no particular order:

1. The case of freelancing under spousal KITAS/P has been widely socialized as one form of employment that is acceptable because it does not contradict UU 13/2003 which requires an employer to have IMTA. In the case of freelancing, there is no employer, thus there can be no IMTA. Note, that this is still a restrictive interpretation of the law, which supposes that for a spousal KITAS/P holder to work for an employer, that employer still has to apply for an IMTA.

2. The so called "test case" that is of interest is whether a spousal KITAS/P holder can actually work for an Indonesian employer without an IMTA. This will truly decide whether a spousal KITAS/P holder is a TKA or not.

3. As far as I know, not a single spousal KITAS/P holder has gotten in trouble for working/freelancing in the now 8+ years that that UU 6/2011 has been effective. This is not to say that I know every person in this situation in Indonesia, yet if it was clearly illegal, I expect at least to hear one or two cases.

4. You should pay taxes on your income in Indonesia.
 

TiborD

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Bloody hell , i just want to live normal life, like everywhere else, i married to an indonesian and we decided to live here ... but those elementary things with the work law here are beyond me ;-) , if my indonesian wife comes to europe ,she basically has no restrictions to work... but here you have to hide like partizan in the bush ;-)))), i dont mind to pay taxes even imta if they give to me as a freelancer,, i do understand that previous administrations didint really care of this , hope new one will begin to treat us as minority of expats married to their own people living here , equally as locals with the same priviligies like in every other democratic country and not as aliens , who should be ripped of money , yeah you can say if you dont like it .. just move away.. but thats not the solution ,, because there are tousands of us who just want to have a normal life here,,,,
 

snpark

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No one is stopping you from working, but like many countries you just need the correct visa to do it legally. You can go and find a job no problem but here you are only supposed to legally do a job that no Indonesian could do, with some exemptions. Likewise I am pretty sure your wife can't just rock up in London and start working in Gap the next day.

Anyway your main point is that at least you are married and can legally live here. How you support yourself, legally or illegally, is up to you. There are ways to do it, as explained.
Freelance is a grey area, but whatever income you earn, money you make etc you must at least pay your due taxes. And that is nothing to do with contracts, bills, invoices etc. It's about paying whatever % is due on the money you make working in Indonesia. Better to declare something and be clean than get surprised next year with a huge bill which you then have to fight in courts. And they can and do examine bank accounts for money credited etc.

Good luck
 

TiborD

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No one is stopping you from working, but like many countries you just need the correct visa to do it legally. You can go and find a job no problem but here you are only supposed to legally do a job that no Indonesian could do, with some exemptions. Likewise I am pretty sure your wife can't just rock up in London and start working in Gap the next day.

Anyway your main point is that at least you are married and can legally live here. How you support yourself, legally or illegally, is up to you. There are ways to do it, as explained.
Freelance is a grey area, but whatever income you earn, money you make etc you must at least pay your due taxes. And that is nothing to do with contracts, bills, invoices etc. It's about paying whatever % is due on the money you make working in Indonesia. Better to declare something and be clean than get surprised next year with a huge bill which you then have to fight in courts. And they can and do examine bank accounts for money credited etc.

Good luck
thank you for your response snpark and ideas i dont really want to argue on this topic because i a really appreciate your input , but my point is : of course they do stop me what i want to do , because legally they dont allow me what i am doing for living.....i dont want to do what they tell me is okay ,help your wife restaurant or hide yourself back in the office, sell bakso , but do it so nobody sees you ..its so ridiculous i want to do photography and videography , promotional videos etc... myself, for this no company will employ me first of all because its not skilled work ,its an art work , and as a freelancer i cannot get an imta , to open pt okay , but its again requires a lot of money to open it and than ,only as a director , which means i cannot go out and film what i want , so clearly is impossible to do what i want legally as i can do in europe for example , as a freelancer,,, as i said i dont mind to pay taxes, imta ,etc ....but there is not this legall option for us freelancers here ,,, thats all, + talking about my wife , if she comes to eu , she gets permit to work in the field she is skilled, and bum , she can fin job and start working legally , well actually she must employ herself , she cant get stucked on social benefits ,
 
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TiborD

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Some thoughts in no particular order:

1. The case of freelancing under spousal KITAS/P has been widely socialized as one form of employment that is acceptable because it does not contradict UU 13/2003 which requires an employer to have IMTA. In the case of freelancing, there is no employer, thus there can be no IMTA. Note, that this is still a restrictive interpretation of the law, which supposes that for a spousal KITAS/P holder to work for an employer, that employer still has to apply for an IMTA.

2. The so called "test case" that is of interest is whether a spousal KITAS/P holder can actually work for an Indonesian employer without an IMTA. This will truly decide whether a spousal KITAS/P holder is a TKA or not.

3. As far as I know, not a single spousal KITAS/P holder has gotten in trouble for working/freelancing in the now 8+ years that that UU 6/2011 has been effective. This is not to say that I know every person in this situation in Indonesia, yet if it was clearly illegal, I expect at least to hear one or two cases.

4. You should pay taxes on your income in Indonesia.
thank you for your answer , very knowledgeable
 

scouser59

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No one is stopping you from working, but like many countries you just need the correct visa to do it legally. You can go and find a job no problem but here you are only supposed to legally do a job that no Indonesian could do, with some exemptions. Likewise I am pretty sure your wife can't just rock up in London and start working in Gap the next day.

Anyway your main point is that at least you are married and can legally live here. How you support yourself, legally or illegally, is up to you. There are ways to do it, as explained.
Freelance is a grey area, but whatever income you earn, money you make etc you must at least pay your due taxes. And that is nothing to do with contracts, bills, invoices etc. It's about paying whatever % is due on the money you make working in Indonesia. Better to declare something and be clean than get surprised next year with a huge bill which you then have to fight in courts. And they can and do examine bank accounts for money credited etc.

Good luck
As far as I am aware in europe including uk , a wife or husband after registering with local immigration tax etc , can work immediately ,that has been the experience of a number of expat freinds .

They are not treated as some kind of crook ! as they are here ,im sorry to say .
 

TiborD

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As far as I am aware in europe including uk , a wife or husband after registering with local immigration tax etc , can work immediately ,that has been the experience of a number of expat freinds .

They are not treated as some kind of crook ! as they are here ,im sorry to say .
exactly , and i just say we should get similiar treatment as they do
 

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