The Case of Baiq Nuril: Miscarriage of Justice

jstar

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The laws here are interpreted in a very ahem....consistent way 🤥

So Ratna Sarumpaet, the " I got beaten up no I lied it was plastic surgery but you can't see the difference " lady, got two years in the state vacation resort.

In her case she ALSO did not put the news in the social media. That was done by her friend(s) in Gerindra.

But SHE could not be prosecuted and accused according to the IT law.

So they dug up a law from 1947 where it is stated that spreading fake and inflammmatory news in unstable and important times for society is punishable.

Phew, saved by the bell.
 
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waarmstrong

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In many countries that is the case, for instance in Europe. Quite some people get into trouble since they post their CCTV footage on Facebook or so, with criminals who are recognizable. The thinking is that even burglars have a right of privacy and it is a job of the police to identify and arrest a person, not of the general public. Whether we agree or not, it is illegal to post this and people have been charged with defamation after thiefs filing complaints.
I Googled "thief wins defamation case in Europe." Nothing came up. Perhaps you could reference a few of the cases among the "quite some people" who have gotten into trouble posting CCTV footage of thieves going about their work.
 

jstar

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I Googled ".........." Nothing came up
Perhaps you know; not even 13% of the people in the EU are native English speakers so also a relatively small part of the news articles in the EU, are in English.

Some samples:

🇩🇪:

About forwarding unproven crimes and the names and pictures of the perpetrators. About 11.000 people have forwarded a Facebook post with a picture of an alleged pedophile. All these people could be held responsible to publish a libel and therefore be charged and having to pay €5.000 in damages.

🇳🇱:

The owner of a flower shop put a CCTV recording online in which you can see that an elderly woman in a scootmobile takes some small plants and leaves without paying for them. Many shares but now he's under scrutiny of the authorities.

🇧🇪:

Qriginal quote:
Reinart Swertvaegher, een hotelier uit Brugge, werd begin deze maand overvallen door twee jongens. Op de bewakingsbeelden was te zien hoe twee jonge mannen al glimlachend de peperdure mountainbike van €7.500 stalen. En alsof dat nog niet genoeg was, wuifden ze nog eens naar de camera ook.
De hoteleigenaar bezorgde de beelden bij de politie en besloot om deze ook op facebook te zetten tegen het advies van de politie in. Het probleem is dat Swertvaegher zelf de wet heeft overtreden door de filmpjes te posten. “De wet op de privacy is er om burgers te beschermen”, reageert de Privacycommissie op het voorval. “Het is niet aan burgers om onderzoek te voeren, dat is de taak van de politie.” Het is dus mogelijk dat de hoteleigenaar voor de inbreuk een boete tot 6.000 euro krijgt.

Translated quote:
Reinart Swertvaegher, a hotelier from Bruges was burglarized by two boys earlier this month. The security footage showed how two young men, smiling, stole an expensive mountain bike of € 7,500. And as if that wasn't enough, they also waved at the camera. The hotel owner delivered the images to the police and decided to put them on Facebook against the advice of the police. The problem is that Swertvaegher himself has broken the law by posting the videos. "The privacy law is there to protect citizens," the Privacy Commission responds to the incident. "It is not the task of citizens to conduct investigations, that is the task of the police." It is therefore possible that the hotel owner will be fined up to 6,000 euros for the infringement.

🇫🇷 :

Original quote:
Tout voleur présumé a droit à la présomption d'innocence et à la protection de sa vie privée, dont l'image fait partie", explique Roland Pérez, juriste et chroniqueur, sur Europe 1 vendredi. Il rappelle notamment l'histoire d'un vol de sacoche dans un cabinet de dentiste, dont la vidéo publiée sur Facebook a atteint 200.000 vues. Suite à ça, le dentiste s'est retrouvé devant le tribunal pour atteinte à la présomption d'innocence et atteinte à l'image.

Translated:
Any suspected thief has the right to the presumption of innocence and the protection of his private life, whose image is part of it ", explains Roland Pérez, jurist and columnist, on Europe 1 Friday. He reminds us of the theft of a satchel in a dentist's office, which video posted on Facebook reached 200,000 views. And it was followed by the dentist going to court for violating the presumption of innocence and damaging someone's good name.


:coffee:
This is a real (and father funny) Dutch COURT case about posting pictures of someone caught in the act:


Google Translate of the conclusion:
DECISION IN COURT CASE:
The preliminary relief judge:
1. Condemns [defendant] within one working day after serving this judgment in his shop for four days on which the shop is open all day, to hang the following text where the photo of [plaintiff] has hung:
"Rectification.
The court in preliminary relief proceedings ruled in its judgment of 26 August 2004 that by hanging the photo of a 79-year-old woman at this place, with the text "This woman stole here", I acted unlawfully against this woman because it is in violation with the law. The judge in interlocutory proceedings ordered me to hang this text for four days.
[defendant].",
the dimensions and font being the same as the dimensions of the photo and the accompanying text,
on pain of a penalty of € 500.00 per day or part of a day that [defendant] does not comply with this conviction, with a maximum of € 10,000.00.
2. Instructs [defendant] to destroy the (copies of) the photo of [plaintiff] still in his possession, on pain of a penalty of € 1,000.00 for each (copy of) a photo of [plaintiff], which he still has in his possession four days after service of this judgment.
3. Declares this judgment to be immediately enforceable.
4. Compensates for the costs of the proceedings in such a way that each party bears its own costs.
5. Rejects the more or otherwise advanced.
Declared by XXXXX, vice-president of the Amsterdam District Court, and pronounced at the public hearing on Thursday, August 26, 2004, in the presence of the clerk.
 
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jstar

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...among the "quite some people" who have gotten into trouble posting CCTV footage of thieves going about their work.
In 2016, one shopkeeper in five distributed camera images of burglars or vandals. [sic]
 

waarmstrong

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Of course, English is not the native language of Europe, which is not to say that stories of significance that play out in Germany, France, and other countries where the native language is other than English, are not reported in the English language press. Beyond that red herring, the significance of the stories you mention is that the privacy law is so widely ignored that the posting of thievery videos, make that alleged thievery, is not news. I note as well that the stories for the most part hype the event by reporting the maximum penalty prefaced by "could be subject to" or some other euphemism for "nothing has really happened to the poster of videos of criminal conduct."
The European law makers' hearts are probably in the right place, in that their intent was probably not to protect criminals from consequential damage to their reputations, which seems to be what the legislators in Indonesia appear to have had in mind.
Its bad law whatever the intent.
 

jstar

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Red herring? In the German press you won't read about cases in France. There are no conform Europeans laws (yet). And i can come up with these articles after just a 5 minute search?! Which makes it clear many do these things but also many get into trouble. So now it seems, as so often, you're just being difficult since you want to be........

I guess you prefer these times:

 
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harryopal

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There is a TV series shown here just about every day called Police Line where the police not only arrest suspects with their faces shown before trial but it seems decide that for serious suspects they will shoot them in the leg or beat them up. The presumption of innocence before trial doesn't hold much water. here.

The odd thing is often parading them with their faces covered... perhaps to hide the bruises.
 

jstar

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Jokowi wrote a letter to the DPR members to ask for their input on the case and what they would think about giving amnesty. It was supposed to be covered in a general meeting today.

As you can see, the case really lives with the government officials. 🤥




💺
Of the 560 members only 85 showed up. That's appalling, it looks like a session of the EU 🙄
.
 

waarmstrong

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Red herring? In the German press you won't read about cases in France. There are no conform Europeans laws (yet). And i can come up with these articles after just a 5 minute search?! Which makes it clear many do these things but also many get into trouble. So now it seems, as so often, you're just being difficult since you want to be........

I guess you prefer these times:

Germans have been instrumental in the in the creation of a European community. I find your parochial characterization of them as having little interest in events beyond their boarders lacking in credibility.

That my views are different than yours is not an element of character.

In case it has been lost in the shuffle, let me make clear the point for me of this thread concerning the plight of Baiq Nuril: The consequences of women speaking out about sexual harassment and assault remain much greater than the consequence for men committing them. Laws that work to perpetuate that inequity are bad laws.
 

jstar

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OMG. Who is talking about Germans here? I am not. I just gave an example that the countries in Europe mainly cover their own political and regional news and don't have much eye for other events besides the large topics of course (Syrian refugees, huge accidents, high profile scandals à la Dominique Strauss-Kahn). You won't read in the Süddeutsche Zeitung about a sexual harassment case in Brussels. But when a German diplomat is involved it will be different. And in Le Soir of course you will read about it. But okay, I will rephrase: The French press won't cover local cases in Germany unless it affects them.

So now I read about this case in the local news, but only in The Netherlands with its huge Indonesian population, mainly triggered by forums. There is just too much going on which is deemed important. What I find dégoûtant (to keep it European) is that all the gossip/selebriti cases here as the 'salty fish' Fairus accusation but also Kriss Hatta's marital status and Steve Emmanuel's coke smuggling get so much more media coverage. And we're not talking The Sun or E! News or Privé or France Dimanche or Gente or Story or Bild here.
 

jstar

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Luckily DPR member Rieke Pitaloka is standing up for Baiq and assisting her.




In the white jacket...

.
 

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