Spouse sponsered kitap work

rosco

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Hi all, I'm a long time lurker but new to posting so please forgive any mistakes. I have looked everywhere and found some great discussions on here but nothing that really suits my situation. Sorry i know this subject has been covered so many times here with so many conflicting opinions.
So i am now on the lifetime kitap, I have always done on and off work for resorts in my area, they often ask me to come and work for language, trust and advice. In the past i have always just called immigration and they told me I was fine to do this so I never worried about it. But the island I live on is getting more and more formal/official so I dont want any issues down the line with manpower.
If I am just called in when my assistance is required which can be anywhere from a month to a year, no contracts or anything. I always considered this informal work. But maybe its not as it is often for pt or ot pma companies.
Do you guys think thats fine or is an impta still needed?
Is it possible to make a small company in my wifes name as consoltants and we get subcontracted by the resorts?
Is there a limit or anything official that seperates informal and formal work?

I am planning to go to manpower on the island to clarify things to avoid possible future problems but i want to be well armed going in. As im sure is the standard that we need to knowe more than them.
As of now i am with the side believing that pasal 66 uu 6/2001 is enough for us and we are not considered TKA. But i know that argument has been discussed enough here.
Thanks for taking your time to read this and i appreciate any advice
 
I'm not sure that going to Manpower or the tax office or even immigration will help you very much.
The situation is that by law, even though spouses are allowed to work, there is no exemption from getting a work permit etc. Even though they may understand your situation, no government officer will tell you you don't need a work permit. And if they do tell you verbally, they wouldn't put it in writing because there are no legal guidelines about it, so a verbal assurance wouldn't be of much use.
Nobody on this forum has ever mentioned a legal case where a spouse has been prosecuted for working without a permit, so it is assumed such a legal case has never happened and is therefore extremely unlikely. On the other hand no-one can say that it couldn't happen, because it could, especially if you have a conflict with someone and they inform the authorities.

If you set up a small company with your wife (eg a CV) and work for it as a consultant, I'm not sure if the CV can give you a work permit. Unless it can give you a work permit there wouldn't be much point in going for that option as it wouldn't solve the problem.
 
Nobody on this forum has ever mentioned a legal case where a spouse has been prosecuted for working without a permit, so it is assumed such a legal case has never happened and is therefore extremely unlikely. On the other hand no-one can say that it couldn't happen, because it could, especially if you have a conflict with someone and they inform the authorities.
I do know of one case where a man was teaching English at the Masjid and during one of their big fights his wife reported him to immigration for working without a permit. He was told he could leave Indonesia within 7 days or they would bring formal charges. He chose to leave. Far from a "legal" case and could have all been air but he didn't wait around to find out. Until one of these cases is fought out in court (which seems unlikely) we have no legal precedent to make an informed decision. Like you stated, without a conflict there is unlikely to be anything said. But if a person with a little power gets upset, it could be bad news.
 
Thank you so much for yout reply. Thats perfect timing as i was making a plan to go in tomorrow. Im just going to leave it all then and carry on. I know it doesnt really matter but i dont feel like im doing anything wrong. I am not taking a job away from anyone here and if anything i am making it able for the local people on the island to be promoted into a higher position that would of been taken by someone from outside the island. As im sure we are all the same we would like to do it right by the systems here but the laws dont make sense unless you are clearly working full time for a big company and need an impta. Thanks for your input i appreciate it, its good to know that no one has ever been prosecuted for this. I will do what work i can from home and minimize the amount of tine i actually work inside the resorts. Thanks again, take care
 
Yes indeed. Being betrayed by your own wife during divorce proceedings is (hopefully) something of an exception, but may indeed be something that some people need to factor in to their calculations.
In that case, I imagine that having left the country (and presumably got divorced) then he could then enter again at a later date without any problem, since he was not deported.
 
I do know of one case where a man was teaching English at the Masjid and during one of their big fights his wife reported him to immigration for working without a permit. He was told he could leave Indonesia within 7 days or they would bring formal charges. He chose to leave. Far from a "legal" case and could have all been air but he didn't wait around to find out. Until one of these cases is fought out in court (which seems unlikely) we have no legal precedent to make an informed decision. Like you stated, without a conflict there is unlikely to be anything said. But if a person with a little power gets upset, it could be bad news.
Well i guess i better keep my wife happy then 😀
We also have 3 children and i guess that because of the standard of the man working to provide for the household and the massive importance of fanily here, that all helps our situations i think no one wwnts to break a family apart.
Even if there have been no formal charges put on anyone i bet there's hundreds of cases of manpower saying that people need to make an impta. Would be great if we could know where the line of formal and informal work is. But i think as Herbert said its probably best to not try and ask too many questions and not rock the boat.
Thanks for your comment too. I think its great to have this community, there is only a few other expats where i live and they all started living here nore recently than me. So i value everyones opinions alot on here. Thanks
 
I do know of one case where a man was teaching English at the Masjid and during one of their big fights his wife reported him to immigration for working without a permit
Sadly not uncommon in.SEA...
Saw it a few times in Thailand and Vietnam...
Not only immigration but police also.
 
there is no exemption from getting a work permit etc.
Can you show me a law which says that all WNA need a work permit in order to work?

Immigration law says that those on spousal visas are allowed to work (UU No. 6 2011, Pasal 61), so they are not violating immigration law.

Manpower law says that all WNA on working visas must have RPTKA work permit, but says nothing for those on spousal visas (Permenaker No. 8 2021, Pasal 1), so they are not violating Manpower law.

What law could they be violating? What law requires all WNA to have a work permit in order to work?
 
Can you show me a law which says that all WNA need a work permit in order to work?

Immigration law says that those on spousal visas are allowed to work (UU No. 6 2011, Pasal 61), so they are not violating immigration law.

Manpower law says that all WNA on working visas must have RPTKA work permit, but says nothing for those on spousal visas (Permenaker No. 8 2021, Pasal 1), so they are not violating Manpower law.

What law could they be violating? What law requires all WNA to have a work permit in order to work?
See #27 post of jstar in this thread.
 
See #27 post of jstar in this thread.
Thank you for pointing me to that, however that post does not reference any laws. It does reference an earlier post (https://www.expatindo.org/community...ng-without-imta-in-pma.5089/page-3#post-66411) which mentions some laws. Let's look at those;

Kemnaker No. 13 tahun 2013: https://jdih.kemnaker.go.id/katalog-1159-PERATURAN MENTERI.html
Note that it is no longer valid and has been replaced with the No. 8 tahun 2021 law I just mentioned in my last post.

UU No. 3 tahun 2003: https://kemenperin.go.id/kompetensi/UU_13_2003.pdf
I have not read every word, but it appears to say the same things as the aforementioned law. There are requirements for work permits, but only in reference to "tenaga kerja asing" which is a specific term defined in Pasal 1; "Tenaga kerja asing adalah warga negara asing pemegang visa dengan maksud bekerja di wilayah Indonesia."
WNA on spouse visas therefore are not TKA and are not subject to the laws designated for TKA.


I am well aware that laws are often enforced by uneducated determinations of stubborn local officials, and therefore what is written in law is not always the reality, but here I am simply asking if there is some other law of which I am unaware which addresses this issue.
 
Thank you for pointing me to that, however that post does not reference any laws. It does reference an earlier post (https://www.expatindo.org/community...ng-without-imta-in-pma.5089/page-3#post-66411) which mentions some laws. Let's look at those;

Kemnaker No. 13 tahun 2013: https://jdih.kemnaker.go.id/katalog-1159-PERATURAN MENTERI.html
Note that it is no longer valid and has been replaced with the No. 8 tahun 2021 law I just mentioned in my last post.

UU No. 3 tahun 2003: https://kemenperin.go.id/kompetensi/UU_13_2003.pdf
I have not read every word, but it appears to say the same things as the aforementioned law. There are requirements for work permits, but only in reference to "tenaga kerja asing" which is a specific term defined in Pasal 1; "Tenaga kerja asing adalah warga negara asing pemegang visa dengan maksud bekerja di wilayah Indonesia."
WNA on spouse visas therefore are not TKA and are not subject to the laws designated for TKA.


I am well aware that laws are often enforced by uneducated determinations of stubborn local officials, and therefore what is written in law is not always the reality, but here I am simply asking if there is some other law of which I am unaware which addresses this issue.
Yes, directing you to that thread and post, was to let you know that there has been several long discussions about this topic .. all resulting in "it's a grey area" more or less and the laws here about this topic contradict eachother.
 
Yes, directing you to that thread and post, was to let you know that there has been several long discussions about this topic .. all resulting in "it's a grey area" more or less and the laws here about this topic contradict eachother.
Yes, I have seen many of them. It is certainly a grey area in practice, and yet I see no greyness or contradiction in the law (if there is, please show me). But the myth persists.
 
When i was going to immigration more often for kitas etc. I used to directly ask the head of immigration in our area if it was ok to work like this and exactly what i can and can't do. In my time here the head has changed a few times, i haven't met the new head yet. But 3 previous heads have told me im fine to be doing what im doing. Unless in a high position in a big company then there is no need for an impta. I have always been transparent and used to call them every time a job come up. Last time i called to say im a day worker but might end up working for a full year pretty much every day. He said go ahead. When i then double checked with him about not needing an impta he laughed at me and said they are the only ones who would deport me so if hes telling me to do it then i am absolutely fine. But recently asked the new head through another guy i know in immigration if i was to get a contract from a pma but he said then i would need an impta.
But i understand that manpower and immigration are two different beasts
 
This again.

I went back and forth both to Immigration and to Manpower for this. Yes, this is a nasty grey area.

the idea is that, yes, you can work informally. For example, together with your wife, you build a small warung makan and you help her around the warung doing dishes or cook or you work in small language center twice a week for 2-3hrs a week.

If you want to work full time, you need to have work permit as it would also get you BPJS tenaga kerja (social security) and tax deduction just like any other foreign workers. Working full time as 40hrs a week. Filling up in a school for a day per week is not considered full time.
 
Can you show me a law which says that all WNA need a work permit in order to work?

Immigration law says that those on spousal visas are allowed to work (UU No. 6 2011, Pasal 61), so they are not violating immigration law.

Manpower law says that all WNA on working visas must have RPTKA work permit, but says nothing for those on spousal visas (Permenaker No. 8 2021, Pasal 1), so they are not violating Manpower law.

What law could they be violating? What law requires all WNA to have a work permit in order to work?

@Brian86
This is a direct quotation from article 61 of the Immigration law UU_No_6_2011:
"Pemegang Izin Tinggal terbatas sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 52 huruf e dan huruf f dan pemegang Izin Tinggal Tetap sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 54 ayat (1) huruf b dan huruf d dapat melakukan pekerjaan dan/atau usaha untuk memenuhi kebutuhan hidup dan/atau keluarganya."

The Holders of ITAS as intended in Article 52 (e) and (f) and the holders of ITAP as intended in Article 54 paragraph (1) letters b and d can carry out work and/or business to meet their living and/or family needs.
Regarding Article 52
"ITAS are granted to:
(e) Foreigners who are legally married to Indonesian citizens; or
(f) children of foreigners who are legally married to Indonesian citizens
."
Regarding Article 54:
"ITAP are granted to:
(b) families due to mixed marriages
(d) Foreigners who are former Indonesian citizens and former child subjects with dual citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia.
The wording
".. can carry out work and/or business to meet their living and/or family needs." indicates that this is not a regular job that often must include the RPTKA.

Also, keep in mind that there are various types of ITAS with different purposes and their own rights, such as work, family, retirement, student, and Digital Nomad ITAS. They are all referred to as ITAS.

Also, the explanation of the law for Visa Clarification is provided by the Kepmenkumham No. M.HH-01.GR.01.04 of 2023. It is itemized what each type of visa can and cannot do. It is clearly spelled out no ambiguity here that: for spouse sponsored VISA, It is forbidden to
"Receive rewards, wages,or similar compensation from individuals or corporations in Indonesia, unless it has gone through dual mechanism residence permit activities for establishing work relationships"
E31B Can not Work Kepmenhumkan No M.HH-01 .GR.01.04 TAHUN 2023 - Copy.JPG


Everyone could have their own interpretation, but I can readily see that what is described by @ilovered in post #15 aligns with this description. The information provided by Immigration and Manpower officials to her is in accordance with the law, with no contradiction or ambiguity here.
 
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"Receive rewards, wages,or similar from individual or corporations in Indonesia, unless it has gone through dual mechanism residence permit activities for doing working work relationships"
View attachment 3729
Everyone could have their own interpretation, but I could easily see that what is described by @ilovered in post #15 matches this description. What has been informed by Immigration and Manpower officials is in line with the law, no contradiction or ambiguity here.
The last paragraph, does it mean that all WNA with a E31B (spouse kitas) need to have a kitas-work on top of the kitas-spouse? Or a work permit on top of the kitas-spouse? Not clear. Because it says:

Larangan:
  1. Melakukan penjualan barang atau jasa
  2. Menermima imbalan, upah atu sejenisnya dari perorangan atau korporasi di Indonesia, terkucuali telah melalui mekanisme rangkap ketiatan izin tinggal untuk melakukan perkerjaan dalam hubungan kerja.
Translated: .... unless they have gone through a double mechanism for obtaining a residence permit to carry out work in an employment relationship.

But, is this Decree of the Minister of Law and Human Rights of the Republic of Indonesia, higher than the Immigration law UU_No_6_2011?
 
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If you can't sell goods or services, how can you provide for your family? I think every type of work falls into one of those two categories.
 
If you can't sell goods or services, how can you provide for your family? I think every type of work falls into one of those two categories.
Not possible to work according to the decree, which Pantaiema pointed out. The ropes on this are pulled tighter (is this a phrase used in English language?). WNA on spouse kitas just cannot work, to protect the employment opportunities for locals.
 
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One of the headaches I will never deal with. I refuse to work for or accpet money from any Indonesian. No gray areas to be treading in. Makes life very simple.
 

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