Notary/Lawyer Suggestion in Bandung for Post-Nup (Separation of Property)

cup1981

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Hey All,

My wife and I plan to purchase property when we get to Indo in May, but we, of course, need to get a postnup (AKA separation of property) contract drawn up so she can legally own property again.

We are hoping to get this done in Bandung. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good notary/lawyer to do this in Bandung? And if you happen to know how much they charge, that would be a great help :).

I emailed one, and they wanted $3,000 (yes they had the nerve to quote it in USD) LOL. Needless to say, I am not considering them and would rather use who you all suggest.
 

dafluff

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I don't have any contacts in Bandung, but as a ball park figure, something in the order of Rp 3 million is probably much more fair in terms of price. Many notaries will charge less.
 

centurion

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In Jakarta, notarized post-nup is around 5-6 million Rp with the registration of the contract in Catatan Sipil/KUA.
If you married by a Muslim rite you have to register your post-nup contract in KUA in the place of marriage. If you are married by Civil law-nonmuslim, you have to register the post-nup in your domicile stated in your Indonesian spouse`s KTP.
 

Euc-

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Are prices between post and prenup different? I was quoted 1.5 million for a pre-nip in Jakarta
 

jstar

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What size will she get?

Nah, there are no official prices; every Notary pulls a number out of her/his ass. A good friend paid 3,5 juta for a prenup after shopping around so I guess 1,5 is very cheap; is it including registration?
 

centurion

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Post-nup has to be notarized and registered afterwards, that is why it is more expensive.
 
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jstar

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Post-nup has to be registered, that is why it is more expensive.
Not really.

If you don't register* you prenup at the disctrict court etc., it would be rather easy to anti-date it with a willing notary.

And like I said, there is no fixed pricing whatsoever. Is is completely arbitrary and with one notary, a postnup could be cheaper than the prenup of another...

* from Wijaya:

Legally speaking, those two (2) registrations comes from different source of law. The registration at the marriage registry imposed by the Marriage Law. The law needs the couples to register it with the marriage registry in order to make the agreement legally binding between them, and applicable to each spouse. The 1974 Marriage Law in Article 29(1) stipulates that: “At the time of or before the marriage took place, with the mutual consent of both parties, they may enter into an agreement approved by the Civil Registrar of marriage…” As for the registration at a district court, it is required by the Civil Code. Article 152 of Civil Code states: “No stipulations in the prenuptial agreement which deviate entirely or partially from the provisions regarding legal community property shall apply to third parties, earlier than from the date of copying such stipulations in a public register, which shall be done with the court clerk at the court of justice, within whose legal jurisdiction the marriage was executed.” The idea is to keep the prenup can be upheld and legally binding against other third party. Who’s the third party? It’s the husband and wife. The third party can be anybody beside those two. It can be either the banks they loan money to, it can be either other people that may purchase their properties. So, the two registration are required in order to have a conclusive legal binding prenup.
 
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centurion

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Not really.

If you don't register* you prenup at the disctrict court etc., it would be rather easy to anti-date it with a willing notary.

And like I said, there is no fixed pricing whatsoever. Is is completely arbitrary and with one notary, a postnup could be cheaper than the prenup of another...

* from Wijaya:

As I said, the post-nup agreement (concluded after marriage) has to be notarized and registered to be valid. There is a Surat Ederan concerning this matter, so no discussion about it. Registration is in KUA or Catatan Sipil, not court.

Notary backdating is a criminal offence, and besides that, it is almost impossible as notaries send every month numbers and reports of their notarized documents to the Ministry of Law.

Concerning the pre-nup agreement (contract done before marriage), the contract does even not need to be notarized and has to be registered at KUA or Catatan Sipil as well. It is done together with the marriage papers so you have less going to government institutions (once only). It will be recorded in your marriage book or in your marriage certificate and is valid to all third parties.

What your lawyer said is wrong about registering in court - courts do not register contracts anymore, and his translation of the law is not correct. That is just to charge more money, I do not have any other explanation.
 

jstar

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What your lawyer said is wrong about registering in court - courts do not register contracts anymore, and his translation of the law is not correct.
Everybody knows that's changed since 1974, towards CatSip/KUA.

But rather telling you seem to think you know more about Indonesian law as this law office. You should reread what they write, perhaps the English used is not great and it requires some imagination, but they give a good and valid reason to do a registration anyway...

And it is not my lawyer.

Concerning the pre-nup agreement (contract done before marriage), the contract does even not need to be notarized
What? Read this Pasal 147:

Perjanjian kawin harus dibuat dengan akta notaris sebelum pernikahan berlangsung, dan akan menjadi batal bila tidak dibuat secara demikian. Perjanjian itu akan mulai berlaku pada saat pernikahan dilangsungkan, tidak boleh ditentukan saat lain untuk itu.
.
 

centurion

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You are completely contradicting yourself....
I edited, post-nup has to be notarized and registered afterwards, that is why it is more expensive and besides that, not many notaries want to do it.
 

centurion

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Everybody knows that's changed since 1974, towards CatSip/KUA.

But rather telling you seem to think you know more about Indonesian law as this law office. You should reread what they write, perhaps the English used is not great and it requires some imagination, but they give a good and valid reason to do a registration anyway...

And it is not my lawyer.



What? Read this Pasal 147:

Perjanjian kawin harus dibuat dengan akta notaris sebelum pernikahan berlangsung, dan akan menjadi batal bila tidak dibuat secara demikian. Perjanjian itu akan mulai berlaku pada saat pernikahan dilangsungkan, tidak boleh ditentukan saat lain untuk itu.
.
Well, if the lawyers say that the contract has to be registered in the court and does not need to be, it makes me doubt al little about their knowledge. I read very carefully what are they talking about.

The article 147 that you quote is from the wrong law and is not applied anymore.
You should check Article 66 of the Marriage Law 1/1974 and you will be more clear why the Civil Code is not applicable for marriage law anymore, including mentioned article 147. However, you can anyway notarize the agreement so you do not need to prove its authenticity in case of dispute.

I hope this helps.
 

Lea Rebanks

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"Another question about Postnup for Mixed marriage in Indonesia."
I am doing exactly the same thing as the couple that started this thread. Buying a property in Bali with postnup. We are currently in the process of registering our British / Hong Kong "Foreign marriage" & "Postnup" at Jakarta lawyer paying usd '000's... enough said.
My question is - I am buying a villa in Bali for approx 3 Billion in my Indo wife's name (with Postnup) will she have to pay income tax? It's all my money. She has never earned money in Indonesia & has no income or NPWP (tax number).?
 

centurion

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Strictly speaking, you should pay 5% tax on the gift, 3 bln Rp, meaning 150 million Rp.
 

ericjancoen

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going to point some local custom in bali when buying property, usually the seller want total price "amount" gross, so the all tax burden fall to the buyer. PPh 2,5% and BPHTB 5% totaling 7,5% added from their price. and the buyer required to have NPWP
PPh = Income Tax, payed by seller.
BPHTB = property transfer, payed by buyer.
 

jstar

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"Another question about Postnup for Mixed marriage in Indonesia."
I am doing exactly the same thing as the couple that started this thread. Buying a property in Bali with postnup. We are currently in the process of registering our British / Hong Kong "Foreign marriage" & "Postnup" at Jakarta lawyer paying usd '000's... enough said.
My question is - I am buying a villa in Bali for approx 3 Billion in my Indo wife's name (with Postnup) will she have to pay income tax? It's all my money. She has never earned money in Indonesia & has no income or NPWP (tax number).?
I did read the 5% mentioned above by Centurion, but you'd better double check since I was told it was 20%. There has been a tax amnesty program which had a tarif of 5%.

Something else; As you might know all assets need to be reported. If you were married without a prenup, and had no separation of finances, in fact the sudden appearance of funds and property ownership might raise a red flag. So then -when the pajak starts to roast you- you need to choose between: 1. pay a fine because of not reporting and be taxed (you repress pre/postnup), and 2. pay tax on a substantial gift (you mention pre/postnup).

Another option is a loan. There are two possible complications: there needs to be a contract and traceable payback (for the Tax) and the BI (Bank of Indonesia) regulations could be interpreted as you having (illegal) banking activities in Indonesia. We have this in place (for our limited portfolio) and while the tax advisors advised against it and don't like it (the notaries also hated the idea), stubborn me went ahead with this anyway, and we have had no issues so far. (I also think they’re a bit overwhelmed by the solution).

⬇ EDIT: Yeah, there are multiple versions, only first line should be free (so parents or children). I had to dig this up from old e-mails and then got as info 5% on a first bracket till half a billion, then 15% for the rest and 20% for foreigners. Can't help you with an advisor on Bali.
.
 
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Lea Rebanks

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I did read the 5% mentioned above by Centurion, but you'd better double check since I was told it was 20%. There has been a tax amnesty program which had a tarif of 5%.

Something else; As you might know all assets need to be reported. If you were married without a prenup, and had no separation of finances, in fact the sudden appearance of funds might raise a red flag. So then when the pajak starts to roast you, you need to choose between paying a fine for tax and not reporting (repress pre/postnup), and tax on a substantial gift (mention pre/postnup).

Another option is a loan. There are two possible complications: there needs to be a contract and traceable payback (for the Tax) and the BI could state you have (illegal) banking activities in Indonesia. We have this in place (for our portfolio) and while the tax advisors don't like it (the notaries also hated the idea), stubborn me went forward with this and we have had no issues so far.
.
Many thanks for your reply.. So I am still confused as to whether I have to pay zero %, 5% or 20%.... Seems I need to speak to a good tax consultant in Bali, any suggestions anyone ? ... I am private retired individual, not big corporate.
 

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