Mixed Religion Marriages That Become Unmixed

fastpitch17

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Have a friend in his early 70s living in Jakarta. Contacted me saying he did so because I try to keep up on these things. I had to admit that for his question, I have no idea since it doesn't apply to me nor will it ever. I am asking here because I have never seen it addressed anywhere. He asked.

1. What are the pros and cons in converting to Islam for a Christian man married to a Muslim lady? I told him I doubted anyone could really answer that. He is considering it since he figures time is running low. Wants to know if conversion of him makes it easier for her if he dies.

2. If he were to convert, what changes concerning his marriage. They were married in Canada 40 some years ago. When he retired they moved here. They did all the proper registration at CatSip of their marriage. Has a KITAP and KTP. Of course, everything indicates Christian. He wonders if they would have to go through another ceremony and register it at the KUA? He figures all his paperwork would need to be updated since Indonesia has a crazy thing about plastering religion everywhere.

3. It will of course be a KTP conversion so will he be pressured where he says whatever he has to say to do so to learn to read Arabic, attend Mosque payers, (is 5 times a day OK if at home when you feel like it)(he can't get up and down that easily) are their payments associated with things after he converts?

With me, I just suggested it is a waste of time but he still wants to know. I said I will see what I can find out.

Thanks to all in advance.
 

jstar

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The only real 'issue' I see if they keep the current situation, is when he dies and is buried in Indonesia. The cemetery would normally be different. (They are separate or have at least separate sections for different religions.) Of course his wife is the only one who can tell whether that would be a perceived problem.

For the rest, esp. since there are no young children, they were not married here, and divorce doesn't seem to be looming, I would not see any advantage of converting.
 

IndoTom

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If religion is something that a person thinks there are multiple correct choices then whats the point? It's all good and pick the easiest one with the most benefits. If a person has doubts that the religion they follow is false and that it will dam them to an eternal hell, then they better hurry up and find the correct one before it's too late!

It's best to read the instruction manual (Holy Book) for each religion, compare it to the actual practice of the religion, and ask yourself does it make sense.

But let me help you narrow down the choices. If you believe that gods are born and die then Hinduism may be good. If you believe that God had a son which was killed, than Christianity is the way to go. If you believe that there are many gods, eternal reincarnation, and the possibility of becoming a god yourself then Buddhism is your manthra! If you believe that you are God's chosen people through your bloodline, and everyone else is "goyim", then Judaism may be of "Interest" to you. If you believe that there is one God that has no partners, the angels, messengers that brought God's instructions to mankind, and believe that this life is merely a test to separate between those going to heaven or hell then Islam may be your straight path. If you think the Universe is complete in and of itself and there is no rational purpose in life, then by all mean you better spawn as much fun as you can before the science experiment is over.

At the end of the day, pick one that you believe, not the one that is convenient. Once you die, there is no second chance!
 

Helpful Herbert

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That's a great summary I'm going to borrow that,

If I believe I am an alien locked in a human body, and have an irrational desire to see Tom Cruise movies ...?
 

Vanuatu

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I don't think there are any pros or cons to it if he is doing it to make his wife's life easier after he dies, unless he wants to be buried in a Muslim cemetery. As for having to learn Arabic or attending mosque, fasting etc... all a personal choice. I converted for a day, for ease of marriage and to appease the wife's family. They asked if I wanted a teacher to learn to pray and I politely declined, they invited me to mosque once and I politely declined, at the first Ramadan after my conversion they asked if I was fasting and I politely declined and they stopped asking. I would say unless the family is really hard core religious the appearance of him converting would be enough to make them all happy, but other than that, no real benefit.
 

harryopal

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My Indonesian wife and I married with a civic ceremony in Australia and then later, in the same city, went through an Islamic form of marriage which took about ten minutes. This was done to make my wife's mother happy. We presented the civic registrations of the marriage for immigration purposes. The mother in law has some hopes, increasingly forlorn, that my wife will turn me into a good Muslim but my wife only prays or fasts when visiting her mother in Bandung. I am not a church goer and do not regard myself as Muslim. Were I to kark it before the wife I don't know there are any particular advantages or disadvantages for her with the Muslim ceremony. I like the idea of being wrapped in a cotton shroud rather than squandering huge amounts of money on an elaborate coffin and funeral service. Just as happy to donate my body to an anatomy school. If there were a God and being resurrected were actually a feature then I reckon that a God that constructed this impossibly, unbelievably complicated universe the deity could easily enough reassemble the atoms of which I am made up and whisk me up to that paradise where people wander around in beautifully manicured parks and pat tame lions as I have seen pictured in some Christian notions of after life. (Not that I would deserve to be there. I just hope the Catholics have it wrong as burning in an inferno for ever and ever is not an attractive proposition.)
 

fastpitch17

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I don't think there are any pros or cons to it if he is doing it to make his wife's life easier after he dies, unless he wants to be buried in a Muslim cemetery. As for having to learn Arabic or attending mosque, fasting etc... all a personal choice. I converted for a day, for ease of marriage and to appease the wife's family. They asked if I wanted a teacher to learn to pray and I politely declined, they invited me to mosque once and I politely declined, at the first Ramadan after my conversion they asked if I was fasting and I politely declined and they stopped asking. I would say unless the family is really hard core religious the appearance of him converting would be enough to make them all happy, but other than that, no real benefit.
His wife's family are mostly Haj people and wear it like a badge. He doesn't live in the same city and hardly would give them the time of day if they asked. He's a gruff old guy and getting worse every year, I doubt he would politely decline any of those request you mentioned. More like a F**k off would be coming from his mouth. As for cemetery, he could care less. Says he prefers cremation but knows his wife will go whatever way is cheapest. You're dead, why waste any more money on you?
Thanks for the reply.
 

fastpitch17

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My Indonesian wife and I married with a civic ceremony in Australia and then later, in the same city, went through an Islamic form of marriage which took about ten minutes. This was done to make my wife's mother happy. We presented the civic registrations of the marriage for immigration purposes. The mother in law has some hopes, increasingly forlorn, that my wife will turn me into a good Muslim but my wife only prays or fasts when visiting her mother in Bandung. I am not a church goer and do not regard myself as Muslim. Were I to kark it before the wife I don't know there are any particular advantages or disadvantages for her with the Muslim ceremony. I like the idea of being wrapped in a cotton shroud rather than squandering huge amounts of money on an elaborate coffin and funeral service. Just as happy to donate my body to an anatomy school. If there were a God and being resurrected were actually a feature then I reckon that a God that constructed this impossibly, unbelievably complicated universe the deity could easily enough reassemble the atoms of which I am made up and whisk me up to that paradise where people wander around in beautifully manicured parks and pat tame lions as I have seen pictured in some Christian notions of after life. (Not that I would deserve to be there. I just hope the Catholics have it wrong as burning in an inferno for ever and ever is not an attractive proposition.)
So, if he did convert, since he is already registered as a mixed couple, you do not think he would have to get a new, Muslim service and registration? Would he need this to get his new KTP? You registered through the civil registry. Does your KTP or paperwork say Islam?
I guess for making things possibly easier for him he is referring to if people will treat him more respectfully. Don't know if he had problems with anyone but I know that here in BL, we were turned away from renting a house because we were not both Muslim. We got the one across the street though. So their are individuals who look down on mixed marriages. I remember years ago looking at various neighborhoods to live it that people would tell us you want to avoid this area or that area because they probably wouldn't accept a mixed couple. We did, we left Jakarta.
 

jstar

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Yeah, the Haji honorary title is often taken very serious and used as BA/BSc/MA/... A KTP always mentions the religion. But now certain people were successful in changing it to 'believer'.

Cremation must be cheaper.

Don't forget Jakarta is Sodom & Gomorrah, all these kind of things are rather easy and laid back here. People have other priorities, but even here they do stick together with people with similar backgrounds, join clusters of the same ethnic groups and socialize with identical religious backgrounds.
 
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Vanuatu

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His wife's family are mostly Haj people and wear it like a badge. He doesn't live in the same city and hardly would give them the time of day if they asked. He's a gruff old guy and getting worse every year, I doubt he would politely decline any of those request you mentioned. More like a F**k off would be coming from his mouth. As for cemetery, he could care less. Says he prefers cremation but knows his wife will go whatever way is cheapest. You're dead, why waste any more money on you?
Thanks for the reply.
I think it may be more difficult for him to be cremated if he converts to Islam, if he doesn't care about appeasing the family I don't see any benefit at all. I have Islam on my KTP and it doesn't get me any discounts, bonus points or special treatment. I guess the only benefit would be if he is in an area that won't let him live as a "mixed" religion couple, but I wouldn't want to leave in an area like that anyway.
 

harryopal

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So, if he did convert, since he is already registered as a mixed couple, you do not think he would have to get a new, Muslim service and registration? Would he need this to get his new KTP? You registered through the civil registry. Does your KTP or paperwork say Islam?
I guess for making things possibly easier for him he is referring to if people will treat him more respectfully. Don't know if he had problems with anyone but I know that here in BL, we were turned away from renting a house because we were not both Muslim. We got the one across the street though. So their are individuals who look down on mixed marriages. I remember years ago looking at various neighborhoods to live it that people would tell us you want to avoid this area or that area because they probably wouldn't accept a mixed couple. We did, we left Jakarta.
"Does your KTP or paperwork say Islam?" No, I don't recall this being something dealt with in our Kitas / Kitap or : SKTT and KTP-OA.
 

harryopal

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Aduh! I just checked and not only am I a Muslim but my occupation is " tourist" whereas I thought I was.... nondescript and retired. Not sure how that happened.
 

fastpitch17

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Yeah, the Haji honorary title is often taken very serious and used as BA/BSc/MA/... A KTP always mentions the religion. But now certain people were successful in changing it to 'believer'.

Cremation must be cheaper.

Don't forget Jakarta is Sodom & Gomorrah, all these kind of things are rather easy and laid back here. People have other priorities, but even here they do stick together with people with similar backgrounds, join clusters of the same ethnic groups and socialize with identical religious backgrounds.
I don't know, is cremation cheaper than other disposals? He does question the burial stuff. According to what he has learned, burial in Christian cemeteries is very hard to come by in Jakarta and the fees are high and an annual rental or something that his wife would have to take care of. Have no idea if this is a limited time thing since whoever is paying isn't going to last forever either.

I suppose I should look into here what burial cost but my plans right now are cremation for 8 juta and those ashes can be dumped anywhere although my wish is into Krakatoa but may only make it to the island shores. When it lows again big time my carbon elements could be spread all over the world contributing to new life everywhere. Imagine all living some day being related be it plant or animal. Of course, could just be a bunch of rocks too. Just not into spending a great deal for a box and people standing around watching you get covered up with dirt. Plus, it saves space. I plan cremation, my wife plans cremation for me, the family will of course try to get involved and get me buried somewhere. All will depend if my wife can stand up to them. My wife even has it in writing from me but hey, who pays attention to that stuff?
 

jstar

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Normally a space in a cemetery is rented/leased yes. But there are huge (and beautiful) places like San Diego Hills where you'd buy. (Purchase is 'hak milik' and contract includes maintenance forever.) But for me also cremation please.
 

harryopal

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What about a Viking style? Buy a small boat on it's last legs, to so speak, tow it well out to sea and fill it with charcoal, the body on top and set fire to the whole thing to finally sink in the sea.

On the other hand, what would probably happen is that the boat would burn first while the body would float away to be washed up on Kuta beach with all the other bits of rubbish... but at least not plastic.
 

fastpitch17

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I
What about a Viking style? Buy a small boat on it's last legs, to so speak, tow it well out to sea and fill it with charcoal, the body on top and set fire to the whole thing to finally sink in the sea.

On the other hand, what would probably happen is that the boat would burn first while the body would float away to be washed up on Kuta beach with all the other bits of rubbish... but at least not plastic.
imagine that investigation trying to find a missing tourist.
 

fastpitch17

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Normally a space in a cemetery is rented/leased yes. But there are huge (and beautiful) places like San Diego Hills where you'd buy. (Purchase is 'hak milik' and contract includes maintenance forever.) But for me also cremation please.
Probably would face bule price on that too. They tell me here that if you want to make sure you get a proper burial, attend church and the priest will handle it all. Maybe, maybe not.
 

waarmstrong

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I am under the impression that cremation is harum. Am I ill informed?
 

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