Married abroad, mixed religion, with one party being Muslim must now be registered at KUA, and the other party must convert.

centurion

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Moderation note:

These posts have been split off into their own thread. The original thread is here. As both these posts are in the Law sub-forums, we request that the posters remain strictly on topic.

End note.

Clear as mud. You can't lose something you can't get to begin with. Try this, if you are applying for a spouce sponsored visit visa, you must have your marriage registered through the KUA if Islamic marriage or Catatan Sipli if mixed religion or performed outside Indonesia before you are elegible to get said visa.
Actually, the regulations have been changed recently. If you have been married abroad, mixed religion, and if the Indonesian party is Muslim, it is required now to register the marriage in KUA first, and the other party to convert to the Religion of Peace.

Some Civil Registry Offices still allow registration of mixed married couples (Jakarta), while many will divert you to KUA already.
 
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Helpful Herbert

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Actually, the regulations have been changed recently. If you have been married abroad, mixed religion, and if the Indonesian party is Muslim, it is required now to register the marriage in KUA first, and the other party to convert to the Religion of Peace.
Are you serious? That's a major change. I don't recall ever seeing something like this mentioned. The whole point in getting married abroad is so you don't have to change religion.
Which specific regulation is it?
 

fastpitch17

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Actually, the regulations have been changed recently. If you have been married abroad, mixed religion, and if the Indonesian party is Muslim, it is required now to register the marriage in KUA first, and the other party to convert to the Religion of Peace.

Some Civil Registry Offices still allow registration of mixed married couples (Jakarta), while many will divert you to KUA already.
I believe this to be false. Better dig out the UU for this ti be close to believable.
 

centurion

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Are you serious? That's a major change. I don't recall ever seeing something like this mentioned. The whole point in getting married abroad is so you don't have to change religion.
Which specific regulation is it?
The regulation of the Ministry of the Religion. Basically, for international marriage to be valid, it has to be valid in line with the regulations of both countries. Indonesia requires religious marriage, ergo, you have to be married with a religious ceremony.

The regulation was first in 2018 and the new one was followed in 2019 by the Ministry of Religion, articles 26-32. I believe @dafluff can help in the legal analysis, but now if you are with Islamic KTP big chance that you cannot register your marriage in Civil Registry Office (I know for sure Tangerang does not allow, while Jakarta still does), and they will forward you to KUA.
 

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Helpful Herbert

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Basically, for international marriage to be valid, it has to be valid in line with the regulations of both countries.
The general rule applied normally around the world is that it has to be valid in the country in which it takes place.
I don't see how doing a fake conversion after the wedding makes it a religious marriage, since at the time of the wedding they were of different religions and no religious vows were made.
I'm not sure of the status of the document you attached (peraturan), which also doesn't seem to mention the case of a mixed religion marriage. If the Indonesian embassy abroad has approved the marriage (which is required) I don't see a legal basis for CatSip to refuse to recognise it.
Maybe Tangerang is just being difficult?
 

snpark

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Is this indonesian only or bule mix marriage
 

centurion

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The general rule applied normally around the world is that it has to be valid in the country in which it takes place.
I don't see how doing a fake conversion after the wedding makes it a religious marriage, since at the time of the wedding they were of different religions and no religious vows were made.
I'm not sure of the status of the document you attached (peraturan), which also doesn't seem to mention the case of a mixed religion marriage. If the Indonesian embassy abroad has approved the marriage (which is required) I don't see a legal basis for CatSip to refuse to recognise it.
Maybe Tangerang is just being difficult?
According to International Private Law, marriage between citizens of different countries has to fulfill the conditions of each country's law to be valid. Article 30.1 of this regulation is in accordance with that (meaning Muslims must follow Muslim religious marriage). You do not need only to convert but to do the religious ceremony as well if you did not do it abroad.

For example, if you marry a girl from Mecca, Saudi Arabia in Las Vegas and you are not a Muslim, that marriage is not valid.

The registration in the embassy is just one step, and Catatan Sipili is refusing to register such (Muslim mixed with others) marriage in many places, except Jakarta for now, as registering would mean that they recognize it. In Indonesian Islam, there is no "mixed religious marriage". If you are Muslim, your partner must be Muslim.
 

Helpful Herbert

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If that's true (which I'm still dubious about since no-one else has ever mentioned it) then I guess the moral of the story is don't live in Tangerang. Also, does the ministry of religion even have any jurisdiction over CatSip?
I remember asking the guy in CatSip why they had put my son down as Muslim when he knows nothing about that religion, he said, pointing to his computer, don't worry we can change it to any religion you like here in the system, just tell me which one you want.
 

Helpful Herbert

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In Indonesian Islam, there is no "mixed religious marriage". If you are Muslim, your partner must be Muslim.
Technically speaking probably correct, but in 10 years of being a "Kristen" married to a muslim, no-one has ever even mentioned it either in a negative way or at all to either of us, and she's from an extremely muslim city and background and interacts a lot with them.
[also a muslim man marrying a christian woman is 100% allowed, so there are flexibilities]
 

centurion

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Technically speaking probably correct, but in 10 years of being a "Kristen" married to a muslim, no-one has ever even mentioned it either in a negative way or at all to either of us, and she's from an extremely muslim city and background and interacts a lot with them.
That was before, now it is more and more enforced to marry "the correct" way through the state apparatus. Same as for tax reporting: first it was more relaxed, now the application of the same regulations just becomes more strict.


[also a muslim man marrying a christian woman is 100% allowed, so there are flexibilities]
That is why I mentioned "Indonesian Islam". Regular Islam allows Christian and Jewish wives.
 

centurion

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If that's true (which I'm still dubious about since no-one else has ever mentioned it) then I guess the moral of the story is don't live in Tangerang. Also, does the ministry of religion even have any jurisdiction over CatSip?
I remember asking the guy in CatSip why they had put my son down as Muslim when he knows nothing about that religion, he said, pointing to his computer, don't worry we can change it to any religion you like here in the system, just tell me which one you want.
I did not mention just Tangerang. Most of Java does not allow anymore recording in Catatan Sipil. For Bali I don't know. This is an issue for some time and I suppose we do not have recently married abroad members with recent stories. Also, some embassies inform applicants that if their marriage is in not in line with Indonesian laws, the marriage would not be valid. So the loophole for muslim-mixed marriages is slowly closing.

Catatan Sipil could register the foreign marrige if the Indonesian Muslim party converts to something else, but they do not reccomend that officcially as it is blasphemous. Also, recent regulation about marriage in other countires basically allow marrying out of embassy and registering in embassy of the marriage only if the Indonesian have domicile abroad (article 40 PerPres 96/2018). PERMENDAGRI No 108 2019 regulating Civil Administration continues in that manners.


Catatan Sipil has jurisdiction of registering foreign marriages, however, Ministry of Religion claims jurisdiction over the Muslim citizens and Capil follows that in most of the cases. Esentially, Ministry of Religion is right, as Marriage Law requires a religious ceremony.

For your case, your son can follow at least one of the parent's religion. So if you are protestent (kristen) he could be kristen as well, especially if you are on joint KK.
 

Hawk256

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Technically speaking probably correct, but in 10 years of being a "Kristen" married to a muslim, no-one has ever even mentioned it either in a negative way or at all to either of us, and she's from an extremely muslim city and background and interacts a lot with them.
[also a muslim man marrying a christian woman is 100% allowed, so there are flexibilities]
Of course they aren't going to say it to your face. :)
 

Nimbus

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I’m not aware of any recent action by the Supreme Court or Constitutional Court that overturned the Supreme Court ruling 1400k/Pdt/1986 about marriage between couples of different religions. In short, the Supreme Court holds that such marriage is legal.

 

fastpitch17

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However, there is a case before the Supream Court to allow mixed religion marriages in Indonesia.
 

Nimbus

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In March there was a widely covered interfaith marriage —taking place in Indonesia— by one of the President’s “special staff”. The marriage was solemnized in both religions, with two separate ceremonies. I don’t know if it’s yet another loophole.

 

centurion

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I’m not aware of any recent action by the Supreme Court or Constitutional Court that overturned the Supreme Court ruling 1400k/Pdt/1986 about marriage between couples of different religions. In short, the Supreme Court holds that such marriage is legal.

The situation in the field is different and marriages between different faiths conducted offshore are refused to be recorded in many places (not a few officers) as I mentioned above unless the ceremony abroad has not been done in a religious way. If it has not been done, now is asked to be done in Indonesia and register the marriage in KUA.

Jokowi's staff marriage was not abroad, and besides that, they both converted to their spouse's religion and convert back, fulfilling the legal criteria for the religious ceremony, which is a legal requirement.

Christians cannot intermarry Muslims via religious ceremony and vice versa (in Indonesia, in other countries Musmils can marry Christian and Jew wives under some conditions).

Indonesia has a long time been a racist society with segregationist laws, not such as the US in the 1960s or RSA, but inching more and more near every day.
 

fastpitch17

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The document the Embassy issues when you register your marriage abroad does not stipulate in what setting you were married. Along with that document and your foreign marriage certificate, you register at the CapSip who don't bother to even read the certificate in a language they can't read to begin with.
 

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