Is a spouse-sponsored Kitas/Kitap really worth it?

[H29062024]

Being on a spouse-sponsored Kitap myself, I sometimes wonder why I bothered, given the tax free life on a B211 Social Visa.

For example, one can have a renewable B211 every six months, requiring a short visa run to collect a new visa at an overseas embassy. I know expats in Bali who’ve been living there this way for over a decade, and as far as immigration is concerned, it can seemingly be done forever. The only downside is that it's not multiple entry, but for those who don't travel abroad much, that doesn't seem like too much of a hardship. And one can then avoid the extensive and often bureaucratic document submissions required for Kitas/Kitap as well as SKTT/KTP-OA.

Then there are the tax benefits, which are huge. As Kitas/Kitap holders (spouse sponsored or retired), we cannot work without a permit (impossible to obtain unless hired as an employee by an Indonesian company - and we cannot be an entrepreneur unless one is able and wants to invest Rp. 10 M in Indonesia through a PMA company) and yet we are required to pay tax in Indonesia on worldwide income as if we were Indonesian citizens with the right to work/do business. B211 holders, even those here for years, do not have to pay tax as the Kantor Pajak refuses to issue them with an NPWP. Moreover, there is zero effort to tax resident individuals based on physical presence here (ie the 183 days test). As a result, thousands of digital nomads are hanging out in Bali and earning tax free income from their online activities, as well as on their overseas income from investments, etc.

Bank accounts are no issue either. Permata Bank is well known for opening accounts for non-Kitas holders and some other banks will do so as well if one is introduced by a current customer.

Driving licenses are also not a problem. Many agents, cooperating with the police, will get both SIM A and SIM C issued for a price. No need for Kitas/Kitap, or even an exam. And I understand that these licenses are 'official' and pass muster. Even if one chose not to go down this route, a home driving license with an IDP will work just fine.

Buying a vehicle in one’s own name is nice, but since the WNA spouse can own it as well, having the Kitas / Kitap in order to do so isn’t that big a deal.

Not having BPJS is no loss. On a B211, one can arguably just buy an annual travel cover to take care of major medical issues or have an independent private insurance policy (which many of us have anyway).

So, at the end of the day, I really wonder why those of us on a spouse sponsored visa bother getting Kitas and then Kitap? Besides the so-called 'security' of a Kitas or Kitap (and not having to do a visa run abroad every six months), are there some materially tangible benefits that I’m missing that outweigh the downsides (especially liability for income tax on worldwide income)?

 

[Samoerai]

Being on a spouse-sponsored Kitap myself, I sometimes wonder why I bothered, given the tax free life on a B211 Social Visa.

For example, one can have a renewable B211 every six months, requiring a short visa run to collect a new visa at an overseas embassy. I know expats in Bali who’ve been living there this way for over a decade, and as far as immigration is concerned, it can seemingly be done forever. The only downside is that it's not multiple entry, but for those who don't travel abroad much, that doesn't seem like too much of a hardship. And one can then avoid the extensive and often bureaucratic document submissions required for Kitas/Kitap as well as SKTT/KTP-OA.

Then there are the tax benefits, which are huge. As Kitas/Kitap holders (spouse sponsored or retired), we cannot work without a permit (impossible to obtain unless hired as an employee by an Indonesian company - and we cannot be an entrepreneur unless one is able and wants to invest Rp. 10 M in Indonesia through a PMA company) and yet we are required to pay tax in Indonesia on worldwide income as if we were Indonesian citizens with the right to work/do business. B211 holders, even those here for years, do not have to pay tax as the Kantor Pajak refuses to issue them with an NPWP. Moreover, there is zero effort to tax resident individuals based on physical presence here (ie the 183 days test). As a result, thousands of digital nomads are hanging out in Bali and earning tax free income from their online activities, as well as on their overseas income from investments, etc.

Bank accounts are no issue either. Permata Bank is well known for opening accounts for non-Kitas holders and some other banks will do so as well if one is introduced by a current customer.

Driving licenses are also not a problem. Many agents, cooperating with the police, will get both SIM A and SIM C issued for a price. No need for Kitas/Kitap, or even an exam. And I understand that these licenses are 'official' and pass muster. Even if one chose not to go down this route, a home driving license with an IDP will work just fine.

Buying a vehicle in one’s own name is nice, but since the WNA spouse can own it as well, having the Kitas / Kitap in order to do so isn’t that big a deal.

Not having BPJS is no loss. On a B211, one can arguably just buy an annual travel cover to take care of major medical issues or have an independent private insurance policy (which many of us have anyway).

So, at the end of the day, I really wonder why those of us on a spouse sponsored visa bother getting Kitas and then Kitap? Besides the so-called 'security' of a Kitas or Kitap (and not having to do a visa run abroad every six months), are there some materially tangible benefits that I’m missing that outweigh the downsides (especially liability for income tax on worldwide income)?

Wow, smart thinking. I wish I knew this earlier, I just got my Kitas. You are right, for me as a pensioner .. a B211 visa would be an option. No downsides what so ever.

 

[Hawk256]

What would happen if immigration decided to stop granting back to back B211 visas? Happened a few years ago in Thailand. They would allow back to back on the 1st renewal but after that decided to stop issuing any more toruist visas to that person until they had spent significant time out of country.

 

[H29062024]

What would happen if immigration decided to stop granting back to back B211 visas? Happened a few years ago in Thailand. They would allow back to back on the 1st renewal but after that decided to stop issuing any more toruist visas to that person until they had spent significant time out of country.

Well in that case you'd be forced to get a spouse sponsored kitas and be sucked into the tax system. Unlikely to happen though, as there are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people, including families with multiple kids, living in places like Bali on B211 visas.

 

[snpark]

Being on a spouse-sponsored Kitap myself, I sometimes wonder why I bothered, given the tax free life on a B211 Social Visa.

For example, one can have a renewable B211 every six months, requiring a short visa run to collect a new visa at an overseas embassy. I know expats in Bali who’ve been living there this way for over a decade, and as far as immigration is concerned, it can seemingly be done forever. The only downside is that it's not multiple entry, but for those who don't travel abroad much, that doesn't seem like too much of a hardship. And one can then avoid the extensive and often bureaucratic document submissions required for Kitas/Kitap as well as SKTT/KTP-OA.

Then there are the tax benefits, which are huge. As Kitas/Kitap holders (spouse sponsored or retired), we cannot work without a permit (impossible to obtain unless hired as an employee by an Indonesian company - and we cannot be an entrepreneur unless one is able and wants to invest Rp. 10 M in Indonesia through a PMA company) and yet we are required to pay tax in Indonesia on worldwide income as if we were Indonesian citizens with the right to work/do business. B211 holders, even those here for years, do not have to pay tax as the Kantor Pajak refuses to issue them with an NPWP. Moreover, there is zero effort to tax resident individuals based on physical presence here (ie the 183 days test). As a result, thousands of digital nomads are hanging out in Bali and earning tax free income from their online activities, as well as on their overseas income from investments, etc.

Bank accounts are no issue either. Permata Bank is well known for opening accounts for non-Kitas holders and some other banks will do so as well if one is introduced by a current customer.

Driving licenses are also not a problem. Many agents, cooperating with the police, will get both SIM A and SIM C issued for a price. No need for Kitas/Kitap, or even an exam. And I understand that these licenses are 'official' and pass muster. Even if one chose not to go down this route, a home driving license with an IDP will work just fine.

Buying a vehicle in one’s own name is nice, but since the WNA spouse can own it as well, having the Kitas / Kitap in order to do so isn’t that big a deal.

Not having BPJS is no loss. On a B211, one can arguably just buy an annual travel cover to take care of major medical issues or have an independent private insurance policy (which many of us have anyway).

So, at the end of the day, I really wonder why those of us on a spouse sponsored visa bother getting Kitas and then Kitap? Besides the so-called 'security' of a Kitas or Kitap (and not having to do a visa run abroad every six months), are there some materially tangible benefits that I’m missing that outweigh the downsides (especially liability for income tax on worldwide income)?

So many incorrect facts in your post

The new version of B211 is nothing like that. It is valid only 60 days. If you are in Indonesia you don't even have to leave to renew it. And there IS a multi entry business visa for 1 or even 2 years

But eventually immigration can and will ask what you have been doing here for so many years and how you fund your lifestyle.

Also officially legally without kitas or NPWP you not supposed to have a bank account or credit card or rent / lease an apartment or house.

Why not just open a PT with you wife and get your kitas that way although I guess that's similar to a wife sponsored kitas except you would have an IMTA also

And morally and psychologically you would feel safer and happier to know you are here legally and not on a dodgy grey area renewed tourist visa

See what happened in Covid? The nomads got stuck. Only kitas holders were allowed in. What would you do then? If your home and life is here and you got stranded in Dubai during the next quarantine

Much better to be here on a kitas

Opening a cheap PT with you and your wife as directors and getting a npwp imta bjps etc will definitely let you sleep more peacefully at night.

The cost is a few thousand $ a year. Not much more than 4 B211 etc considering you have to pay the tax 2jt for that 4 times a year plus the fee etc and 4 fingerprints and immigration visits.

 

[Hawk256]

Well in that case you'd be forced to get a spouse sponsored kitas and be sucked into the tax system. Unlikely to happen though, as there are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people, including families with multiple kids, living in places like Bali on B211 visas.

It was the same in Thailand. Thousands of people told without warning that this was new policy even though it had been being used for years and years. Unlikely but possible. Especially if they think it is hitting them in the pocketbook. You don't have to look further than the recent policy for retirement visas in Indonesia to see that things can change bacially overnight. Part of the fun of living in a foreign country.

 

[snpark]

Best policy always to suck it up and go the fully legal official route regarding visa etc
Not reliant on a grey area

 

[H29062024]

So many incorrect facts in your post

The new version of B211 is nothing like that. It is valid only 60 days. If you are in Indonesia you don't even have to leave to renew it. And there IS a multi entry business visa for 1 or even 2 years

But eventually immigration can and will ask what you have been doing here for so many years and how you fund your lifestyle.

Also officially legally without kitas or NPWP you not supposed to have a bank account or credit card or rent / lease an apartment or house.

Why not just open a PT with you wife and get your kitas that way although I guess that's similar to a wife sponsored kitas except you would have an IMTA also

And morally and psychologically you would feel safer and happier to know you are here legally and not on a dodgy grey area renewed tourist visa

See what happened in Covid? The nomads got stuck. Only kitas holders were allowed in. What would you do then? If your home and life is here and you got stranded in Dubai during the next quarantine

Much better to be here on a kitas

Opening a cheap PT with you and your wife as directors and getting a npwp imta bjps etc will definitely let you sleep more peacefully at night.

The cost is a few thousand $ a year. Not much more than 4 B211 etc considering you have to pay the tax 2jt for that 4 times a year plus the fee etc and 4 fingerprints and immigration visits.

Fyi, the new social/cultural B211 is for 60 days initially, and then renewable onshore twice for 60 days each time. Total stay per visa is max 180 days. The only recent change is that it can no longer be applied for onshore. One needs to organize a visa run to obtain the visa at an Indonesian embassy abroad, so a trip out every six months is therefore now necessary. In any case, immigration will issue one B211 after another - no break is required other than the time necessary to do the visa run. The business visa is also a good option, as you correctly point out.

The reality is that immigration, at least in Bali, does not ask anyone what they have been doing or how they fund their lifestyle, unless they are caught overstaying their visa for a significant length of time, which is a different thing altogether. They're too busy (have you seen the immigration queues?) and also simply don't care - in fact, immigration itself has decided for years to allow back to back to back B211 visas...no one should think that they don't know what they're doing or the implications of it. There are literally thousands of people/families living permanently in Bali for many, many years on the B211 and its predecessors, no questions asked by anyone in the government. As for bank accounts, etc. I know that several licensed banks offer accounts to non-Kitas holders who are introduced by existing bank clients. That's the reality, whether it's supposed to happen or not. Given that the government takes 20% of interest payments in withholding tax on accounts without an NPWP, I doubt whether they really care whether the account holder has a Kitas or not.

Interestingly, the nomads who stayed here generally did great during Covid, since the government kindly allowed them to renew their visas onshore and not do a visa run every six months, saving them lots of hassle as well as money. The rest on B211's just stayed here and hunkered down, like the rest of us who didn't want to deal with the quarantines required of international travel to many places.

Finally, some individuals living in Indonesia have significant assets and income offshore, so a solution to avoid getting into the tax net on overseas income, which the B211 allows (with the full understanding and blessing by the Indonesian government, who knowingly issue an unlimited series of B211 visas, while at the same time denying NPWP to a B211 visa holder so they can't pay income tax, even if they wanted to), seems to be a valid alternative to a Kitas or Kitap. It's what the nomads have been enjoying (along with those not working here for an Indonesian company and/or not married to an Indonesian), so why not others? Not a perfect solution, but with the potential tax savings, it's certainly a viable option. Sure, things could change in the future, but foreigners married to an Indonesian could then pursue a Kitas at that point..

 

[H29062024]

Best policy always to suck it up and go the fully legal official route regarding visa etc
Not reliant on a grey area

No grey area here. All fully legal and blessed by the government.

 

[ChrisTex]

No grey area here. All fully legal and blessed by the government.

You do realize that they have been changing their mind every 2 months recently and with a new president, there are going to be even more changes.....all fully legal and blessed by the government.

 

[snpark]

Fyi, the new social/cultural B211 is for 60 days initially, and then renewable onshore twice for 60 days each time. Total stay per visa is max 180 days. The only recent change is that it can no longer be applied for onshore. One needs to organize a visa run to obtain the visa at an Indonesian embassy abroad, so a trip out every six months is therefore now necessary. In any case, immigration will issue one B211 after another - no break is required other than the time necessary to do the visa run. The business visa is also a good option, as you correctly point out.

The reality is that immigration, at least in Bali, does not ask anyone what they have been doing or how they fund their lifestyle, unless they are caught overstaying their visa for a significant length of time, which is a different thing altogether. They're too busy (have you seen the immigration queues?) and also simply don't care - in fact, immigration itself has decided for years to allow back to back to back B211 visas...no one should think that they don't know what they're doing or the implications of it. There are literally thousands of people/families living permanently in Bali for many, many years on the B211 and its predecessors, no questions asked by anyone in the government. As for bank accounts, etc. I know that several licensed banks offer accounts to non-Kitas holders who are introduced by existing bank clients. That's the reality, whether it's supposed to happen or not. Given that the government takes 20% of interest payments in withholding tax on accounts without an NPWP, I doubt whether they really care whether the account holder has a Kitas or not.

Interestingly, the nomads who stayed here generally did great during Covid, since the government kindly allowed them to renew their visas onshore and not do a visa run every six months, saving them lots of hassle as well as money. The rest on B211's just stayed here and hunkered down, like the rest of us who didn't want to deal with the quarantines required of international travel to many places.

Finally, some individuals living in Indonesia have significant assets and income offshore, so a solution to avoid getting into the tax net on overseas income, which the B211 allows (with the full understanding and blessing by the Indonesian government, who knowingly issue an unlimited series of B211 visas, while at the same time denying NPWP to a B211 visa holder so they can't pay income tax, even if they wanted to), seems to be a valid alternative to a Kitas or Kitap. It's what the nomads have been enjoying (along with those not working here for an Indonesian company and/or not married to an Indonesian), so why not others? Not a perfect solution, but with the potential tax savings, it's certainly a viable option. Sure, things could change in the future, but foreigners married to an Indonesian could then pursue a Kitas at that point..

No. Not correct. It changed 3-4 months ago

 

[pantaiema]

Fyi, the new social/cultural B211 is for 60 days initially, and then renewable onshore twice for 60 days each time. Total stay per visa is max 180 days. The only recent change is that it can no longer be applied for onshore. One needs to organize a visa run to obtain the visa at an Indonesian embassy abroad, so a trip out every six months is therefore now necessary. In any case, immigration will issue one B211 after another - no break is required other than the time necessary to do the visa run. The business visa is also a good option, as you correctly point out.

The reality is that immigration, at least in Bali, does not ask anyone what they have been doing or how they fund their lifestyle, unless they are caught overstaying their visa for a significant length of time, which is a different thing altogether. They're too busy (have you seen the immigration queues?) and also simply don't care - in fact, immigration itself has decided for years to allow back to back to back B211 visas...no one should think that they don't know what they're doing or the implications of it. There are literally thousands of people/families living permanently in Bali for many, many years on the B211 and its predecessors, no questions asked by anyone in the government. As for bank accounts, etc. I know that several licensed banks offer accounts to non-Kitas holders who are introduced by existing bank clients. That's the reality, whether it's supposed to happen or not. Given that the government takes 20% of interest payments in withholding tax on accounts without an NPWP, I doubt whether they really care whether the account holder has a Kitas or not.

Interestingly, the nomads who stayed here generally did great during Covid, since the government kindly allowed them to renew their visas onshore and not do a visa run every six months, saving them lots of hassle as well as money. The rest on B211's just stayed here and hunkered down, like the rest of us who didn't want to deal with the quarantines required of international travel to many places.

Finally, some individuals living in Indonesia have significant assets and income offshore, so a solution to avoid getting into the tax net on overseas income, which the B211 allows (with the full understanding and blessing by the Indonesian government, who knowingly issue an unlimited series of B211 visas, while at the same time denying NPWP to a B211 visa holder so they can't pay income tax, even if they wanted to), seems to be a valid alternative to a Kitas or Kitap. It's what the nomads have been enjoying (along with those not working here for an Indonesian company and/or not married to an Indonesian), so why not others? Not a perfect solution, but with the potential tax savings, it's certainly a viable option. Sure, things could change in the future, but foreigners married to an Indonesian could then pursue a Kitas at that point..

Here is the official web site for B211 Visa from the Indonesian Immigration.

Visa Kunjungan Satu Kali Perjalanan- B211A - Direktorat Jenderal Imigrasi

www.imigrasi.go.id

At the moment, the cost of doing this:
Fees
1. Single Entry Visa (valid for 60 days): 2,000,000 IDR per person
2. Single Entry Visa (valid for 180 days): 6,000,000 IDR per person
3. Single Entry Visa for Tourist (valid for 60 days): 1,500,000 IDR per person

+ The Travelling cost for Visa run every 180 days: e.g Local Transport, return flight, opportunity cost, convenience while you are on the short run. The flight cost might not be what you would have normally paid as there is time restriction, you buy it at any price when you will need to make a short run.

IMHO making a visa run every 180 days is only worthy if you pay a significant foreign-sourced income tax compared to the cost of doing a visa run every 180 days. Another one to be considered is the hassles of doing a visa run. Income will be taxed in either country, so you do not pay in Indonesia you pay it anywhere else.

You have the point from tax avoidance of the foreign-sourced income. Tax avoidance is a complicated and interesting subject that attract interestt. Indonesia has signed Double Tax Avoidance Agreement (DTAA) with many countries to avoid the double taxation. So it will also depend on the country where the person in question comes from.

Another alternative is to live in Singapore where the foreign-sourced income is only taxed if it is actually received in Singapore. Any income from a foreign source, will not be taxed unless it is actually received in Singapore. But living in Singapore is much more expensive compared to living in Bali.

 

[centurion]

Being on a spouse-sponsored Kitap myself, I sometimes wonder why I bothered, given the tax free life on a B211 Social Visa.

For example, one can have a renewable B211 every six months, requiring a short visa run to collect a new visa at an overseas embassy. I know expats in Bali who’ve been living there this way for over a decade, and as far as immigration is concerned, it can seemingly be done forever. The only downside is that it's not multiple entry, but for those who don't travel abroad much, that doesn't seem like too much of a hardship. And one can then avoid the extensive and often bureaucratic document submissions required for Kitas/Kitap as well as SKTT/KTP-OA.

Then there are the tax benefits, which are huge. As Kitas/Kitap holders (spouse sponsored or retired), we cannot work without a permit (impossible to obtain unless hired as an employee by an Indonesian company - and we cannot be an entrepreneur unless one is able and wants to invest Rp. 10 M in Indonesia through a PMA company) and yet we are required to pay tax in Indonesia on worldwide income as if we were Indonesian citizens with the right to work/do business. B211 holders, even those here for years, do not have to pay tax as the Kantor Pajak refuses to issue them with an NPWP. Moreover, there is zero effort to tax resident individuals based on physical presence here (ie the 183 days test). As a result, thousands of digital nomads are hanging out in Bali and earning tax free income from their online activities, as well as on their overseas income from investments, etc.

Bank accounts are no issue either. Permata Bank is well known for opening accounts for non-Kitas holders and some other banks will do so as well if one is introduced by a current customer.

Driving licenses are also not a problem. Many agents, cooperating with the police, will get both SIM A and SIM C issued for a price. No need for Kitas/Kitap, or even an exam. And I understand that these licenses are 'official' and pass muster. Even if one chose not to go down this route, a home driving license with an IDP will work just fine.

Buying a vehicle in one’s own name is nice, but since the WNA spouse can own it as well, having the Kitas / Kitap in order to do so isn’t that big a deal.

Not having BPJS is no loss. On a B211, one can arguably just buy an annual travel cover to take care of major medical issues or have an independent private insurance policy (which many of us have anyway).

So, at the end of the day, I really wonder why those of us on a spouse sponsored visa bother getting Kitas and then Kitap? Besides the so-called 'security' of a Kitas or Kitap (and not having to do a visa run abroad every six months), are there some materially tangible benefits that I’m missing that outweigh the downsides (especially liability for income tax on worldwide income)?

If you intend to live in Indonesia, it is worth it. A regular visa is extendable every 60 days, not every 6 months. The pandemic showed the importance of having several passports or residencies.

The real issue where you have a point is the Indonesian worldwide taxation. Every Indonesian KITAS/KITAP holder should be aware of this and organize his/her life accordingly.

 

[fastpitch17]

I think I am getting too old to be jumping into these Immigration ideas. If people want to do things the complicated way trying to skirt government policies and practices, so be it. Why even ask if something is possible when you come with all the answers when someone says maybe not? You have your answers already, why argue. Go do whatever the hell you want to do. Your family is the involved ones, no need to try and drag others into it.

Do your homework and keep your fingers crossed. I am just going to put my feet back up, drink some more nice black Ache coffee, and know all my Immigration needs are in order and I don't need to concern myself with them. Maybe I'll even go inside and put some clothes on so I can later venture into the neighborhood world.

 

[harryopal1]

I feel relaxed with having "permanent" Kitap and just having to report in 5 years but even with retirement there is the never ending merry go round of things to be watched. I did an update of my reminder list yesterday and 21 items from passport renewal, lease, credit cards, driver's licence etc. This I post up on the bathroom door but even then, before doing an update yesterday, I had missed car registration renewal. Does the paper work end at the pearly gates?

 

[serious_fun]

I believe in working on a firm foundation (no earthquake pun intended). The KITAS/KITAP route is rock solid in my opinion.

Being here with wife & children means that I'm not going to risk upheaval(s).

In the opinion of persons much smarter than I, the world economy may enter a very difficult phase in the near future. Sentiment regarding nomads in Indonesia (and elsewhere) will change.

 

[flavus]

In the opinion of persons much smarter than I, the world economy may enter a very difficult phase in the near future. Sentiment regarding nomads in Indonesia (and elsewhere) will change.

From what I hear from friends who either live in Bali or used to... sentiments are already turning against. Not just an Indonesian thing, same in lower cost-of-living parts of Europe like Portugal.

 

[Balifrog]

From what I hear from friends who either live in Bali or used to... sentiments are already turning against. Not just an Indonesian thing, same in lower cost-of-living parts of Europe like Portugal.

Normal, at a point it reaches the max level of tolerance.

Add to that some idiots boasting on Y.T. "how to live cheap on Bali for 500 $ per month" and you're sure that people's feelings will start to be hurt.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

If you have a KITAP you basically have to go to immigration once every 5 years. [plus a couple of visits renewing the MERP]. Let's say a total of 3-4 days spent over a period of 5 years. And it's free from 2nd KITAP onwards. For the other visas you mentioned you have to go to immigration several times per year, each time you have to pay, plus the time and cost of visa runs.

Politically, a spouse kitap has a level of protection against political developments. Hard to see any situation in which the system will be cancelled or changed for the worse, since no government would like to attack family rights.
For the other visas they can be changed at any time.

As for having to pay tax on worldwide income. I've never heard of someone with a spouse kitap who does that (how could they even know what your worldwide income is?).

 

[flavus]

As for having to pay tax on worldwide income. I've never heard of someone with a spouse kitap who does that (how could they even know what your worldwide income is?).

Not sure about Indonesia. In the US you have to declare foreign assets above a certain threshold (two thresholds set by two government ministries actually)...

and many banks worldwide would either refuse to deal with Americans or file the appropriate paperwork to report your foreign income.

I think if you bring in substantial amounts of money from overseas you would eventually end up audited. Then again one of the two parties here like to defund the IRS (tax agency) on behalf of their rich buddies ...