Indonesia Second Home Programme - All Retirement Stay Permits Abolished and Existing Holders Scheduled for Expulsion in Case of Non-Compliance

MamangDudul

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It is wrong on many levels. The government of Indonesia issues residence permits (ITAS/ITAP)to retirees, based on certain criteria, and retirement stay permits are defined by Law on Immigration.

And now, by Surat Edaran (Circular Letter), a legal document of lower rank than law or government regulation, rights from the Law are derogated and simply abolished. Present permit holders even have no right even to finish the term stated in their documents, approved by the Government. This can jeopardize the government's credibility.

And on top of it, all these retirees that stayed in Bali helped the local economy survive during the pandemic. A nice reward they got.
There are so many things these days that I really don't understand, whether it concerns locals or expats or whoever. Actually what kind of lifes do our leaders imagine for us?

What is the intention behind all of this? I don't think a lot of people will put 2M on hold, maybe some don't even have 2M to put on hold. I mean some are, but not every expat is some kind of $/€/£ ,or whatever foreign currency, millionaire but some obviously have had enough pension to spend their retirement and their money here.
Why would you chase money out of the country? I don't even talk about the humanity factor anymore cause that's spilled milk anyway when it comes to these kind of things.

I just don't get it, but I was never good in economy..so what do I know?
So what's the motivation?
 
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centurion

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The idea is obviously to attract big money and to replace lower-quality tourists with higher-quality (financial) tourists.

But this has several weak points:
-really rich people, 7-8 figures or more, will not reside in a country that has worldwide taxation (as Indonesia has), without a tax holiday covering the whole duration of the stay permit, so they could be immune to any taxation from Indonesia. So forget millionaires/billionaires if you do not have tax immunity for them;
-rich people spend mostly in expensive places, owned by other foreigners and corporations;
-the lower-end of tourists, retirees including, are spending in warungs, small local shops, renting smaller houses, and distributing the money more evenly to the local community.
 

Helpful Herbert

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And now, by Surat Edaran (Circular Letter), a legal document of lower rank than law or government regulation, rights from the Law are derogated and simply abolished.
Surely that isn't legally possible (i.e. it can be challenged).
 

MamangDudul

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The idea is obviously to attract big money and to replace lower-quality tourists with higher-quality (financial) tourists.

But this has several weak points:
-really rich people, 7-8 figures or more, will not reside in a country that has worldwide taxation (as Indonesia has), without a tax holiday covering the whole duration of the stay permit, so they could be immune to any taxation from Indonesia. So forget millionaires/billionaires if you do not have tax immunity for them;
-rich people spend mostly in expensive places, owned by other foreigners and corporations;
-the lower-end of tourists, retirees including, are spending in warungs, small local shops, renting smaller houses, and distributing the money more evenly to the local community.
All good points and what you say definitely makes sense to me. Again, I have no problem with admitting that Iam not always the fastest or smartest about these things.

What I don't get is, why you can't aim for both? Why do you have to kick out some old retired folks that spend good money here. What do they really cost you? As far as I know they are obviously not allowed to work, it also doesn't look too good for getting BPJS either. So they steal the living space of more rich people? 😅
I mean, I get that you want to attract people with even more money. Just this seems like a highly flawed way to me, as your post also already showed.
 
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MamangDudul

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At current bank deposit rates the cost is 60jt per year to have that money blocked. That seems like a pretty expensive visa.
Yeah, so to who is this attractive? Obviously only for people who have enough and don't care. I know people here who have more than enough but still would be very unhappy to block 2M.
 

R Cameron

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And now, by Surat Edaran (Circular Letter), a legal document of lower rank than law or government regulation, rights from the Law are derogated and simply abolished. Present permit holders even have no right even to finish the term stated in their documents, approved by the Government. This can jeopardize the government's credibility.
Recent immigration laws started mentioning "Rumah Kedua" visa and notably lacked the "Lanjut usia" visa as an option. It is normal for a lower level document to explain implementation steps, though I would have expected a Permenkumham and not a lowly Surat Edaran.

That I can forgive, and scoff at the ignorance of thinking this new visa will appeal to more than a handful of people, but cutting short existing visas is next-level appalling.
 

Banana72

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I quickly went through the "Surat Edaran"...aside from requiring the 2 Billion to be put into the Government's banks...I assume that money will produce some kind of interests/dividend?? (although yeah, who would trust that much money locked up that long..)
 

R Cameron

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1.125M invested in a PT PMA, without being a director, gets you a KITAS and KITAP. If you can find a trustworthy PT PMA that will sell you shares and give you dividends that would be a lower up front cost and ideally return much more than the small interest of 2M in a bank account.
 

pantaiema

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All good points and what you say definitely makes sense to me. Again, I have no problem with admitting that Iam not always the fastest or smartest about these things.

What I don't get is, why you can't aim for both? Why do you have to kick out some old retired folks that spend good money here. What do they really cost you? As far as I know they are obviously not allowed to work, it also doesn't look too good for getting BPJS either. So they steal the living space of more rich people? 😅
I mean, I get that you want to attract people with even more money. Just this seems like a highly flawed way to me, as your post also already showed.
IMHO the Indonesian government has nothing to lose but instead has something to gain.
Keep in mind these people including retirees
  • They do not take job from local people as they can not work using these type Visa.
  • They pay taxes
  • They spend money on subsistence, accommodation, prvate health care;
In the meanwhile, unlike in many western countries.
  • There is no benefit system, no social security.
  • There is no free state healthcare
  • There is no free accommodation for those who could not effort it.
  • If you could not provide your own shelter, you can not support yourself or someone else like your family, close relatives, closed friends could support you will perish and disappear on the street.
The one viable explanation that I could see of the issuance of this circular letter is to make money available on the system that could later be stolen, or corrupted. This might be the result of lobbying of politicians and bankers colluding each others. Let alone this is not a law, regulation but is only a circular letter. It is the same thing when they issued a circular letter regarding COVID-19 for quarantine where a lot of hotels, private healthcare providers are taking their shares.
 

MamangDudul

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IMHO the Indonesian government has nothing to lose but instead has something to gain.
Keep in mind these people including retirees
  • They do not take job from local people as they can not work using these type Visa.
  • They pay taxes
  • They spend money on subsistence, accommodation, prvate health care;
In the meanwhile, unlike in many western countries.
  • There is no benefit system, no social security.
  • There is no free state healthcare
  • There is no free accommodation for those who could not effort it.
  • If you could not provide your own shelter, you can not support yourself or someone else like your family, close relatives, closed friends could support you will perish and disappear on the street.
The one viable explanation that I could see of the issuance of this circular letter is to make money available on the system that could later be stolen, or corrupted. This might be the result of lobbying of politicians and bankers colluding each others. Let alone this is not a law, regulation but is only a circular letter. It is the same thing when they issued a circular letter regarding COVID-19 for quarantine where a lot of hotels, private healthcare providers are taking their shares.
Thanks for your explanation. Iam not that familiar with all the small or bigger details of Indonesian laws and so on. I get what you are saying but Iam still confused. It's "only" a circular letter but it's still binding isn't it? Or is there something that can be challenged about it? Cause taken from your example about the Covid19 hotel quarantine it seems like such a letter is indeed "law". Feel free to correct me or to explain further, I still have a lot to learn.

I also would like to add again that the government probably thinks it can't lose anything but how about if no one really wants to follow this great idea? They'll lose a few thousand spenders who usually spend a lot more than many locals. I still don't see how this will be a benefit on the long run. Unless it is like you said with the lobbying and all this stuff. But then again, why can such a letter be just passed like that? Iam probably pretty naive here, but I really don't have any big knowledge about how all of this works. I was never really concerned with these kind of things
 

Teabag

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Me and my wife wanted to emigrate to Indonesia at the beginning of next year, as an EX WNI, my wife would have received the KITAP directly and me too, of course.

But that's all over now I guess or ? I do not want to put 130k on an Indo bank, possibly even 2 times because both spouses need a visa.

How do you deal with this, who already have a KITAP ???

Thailand or Philippines?

Honestly, we're panicking quite a bit....
 

El_Goretto

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Me and my wife wanted to emigrate to Indonesia at the beginning of next year, as an EX WNI, my wife would have received the KITAP directly and me too, of course.

But that's all over now I guess or ? I do not want to put 130k on an Indo bank, possibly even 2 times because both spouses need a visa.

How do you deal with this, who already have a KITAP ???

Thailand or Philippines?

Honestly, we're panicking quite a bit....
No, this visa only impacts retirement visas. Your wife, as eligible for ex-wni kitap does not fall into this category.
 

Teabag

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No, this visa only impacts retirement visas. Your wife, as eligible for ex-wni kitap does not fall into this category.

I hope so. If I read the surat in chapter 5 then it says:

*************
BAB V

ALIH STATUS IZIN TINGGAL KUNJUNGAN MENJADI ITAS RUMAH KEDUA

Permohonan Alih Status Izin Tinggal Kunjungan menjadi Itas Rumah Kedua diajukan oleh orang asing atau Penjamin kepada Pejabat Imigrasi yang ditunjuk ........

*************

We've planned to go the route Visit Visa - Alih status to KITAS and KITAP.

If the chapter 5 above is voluntary, then all the better, but I still doubt
 

dafluff

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I hope so. If I read the surat in chapter 5 then it says:

*************
BAB V

ALIH STATUS IZIN TINGGAL KUNJUNGAN MENJADI ITAS RUMAH KEDUA

Permohonan Alih Status Izin Tinggal Kunjungan menjadi Itas Rumah Kedua diajukan oleh orang asing atau Penjamin kepada Pejabat Imigrasi yang ditunjuk ........

*************

We've planned to go the route Visit Visa - Alih status to KITAS and KITAP.

If the chapter 5 above is voluntary, then all the better, but I still doubt

As already mentioned, you fall under Ex-WNI category. That is a completely separate permit from the Second Home visa. Nothing in this letter applies to your situation.
 

fastpitch17

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I seen an article about this in yhe Bali Times. They have the dream that with the requirements for the Second Home Visa they will attract more affluent visitors. I think if the more affluent wanted to retire in Bali they would have already done so. What attracts anyone to a place where they are required to put 130,000 dollars in a non touchable bank account and have to go through a select group to get the visa? Sounds crazy.

So, now, you chase out all the retirees that don't meet the new qualifications and what? You lose all that spending they do regularly and it is replaced by what? A fantasy of some gov dreamers?

I am guessing but I think the vast majority if those on retirement visas are here because it is affordable and fit with their personal finances. They spend the majority of their finances on their day to day living expenses. Property owners, supermarkets, mall stores, domestic employees, and local businesses all benefit. That will all be lost. Right now they are saying in Bali that rental prices are now heading up quite a bit. Maybe they think masses will be arriving that are affluent. Think of all the property owners who's renters will have to leave mid contract. Of course there will be no credit returned and the property gets opened earlier for a new renter thus giving the property owner added income.

Retirees that have to give it all up will not just pack up and go home to where they know their finances will put them in lives they can't afford. They will weigh the options of other areas like Vietnam or the Philippines amoungst other areas. There will be a loss for Indonesia and like so many things in the past it will be an oops, let's change that after so many have suffered from their actions. They won't care though, it wasn't them losing out. Someone else's problems.
 

scouser59

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I feel sorry for the many pensioners here in bali who have made this place their home , they clearly dont have 2 billion floating around, there lives will be destroyed by this "heartless legislation" .

Hopefully this does not materialize and they can relax in their twilight modest lives in peace .
 

R Cameron

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