Indonesia: Expat friendly or not?

MamangDudul

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Hi everyone,

I would be happy to hear some opinions on this topic and how you would rate Indonesia in terms of being expat-friendly. There are also some things to consider when we say expat friendly or not.

I mean every country is different and has different capcitys and so on. Every country more or less likes their tourists, but what about the real deal? Settling down and so on.

From my experience and what I know from friends, no country is overly happy to welcome you as a new resident since they have enough problems with their own people.

Most countries also won't stand in your way if everything is correct though

How do you feel about Indonesia when it comes to this?
 
Hi everyone,

I would be happy to hear some opinions on this topic and how you would rate Indonesia in terms of being expat-friendly. There are also some things to consider when we say expat friendly or not.

I mean every country is different and has different capcitys and so on. Every country more or less likes their tourists, but what about the real deal? Settling down and so on.

From my experience and what I know from friends, no country is overly happy to welcome you as a new resident since they have enough problems with their own people.

Most countries also won't stand in your way if everything is correct though

How do you feel about Indonesia when it comes to this?
Can you give us a poll with some set categories like: enforces social/cultural norms, easy to get a visa, equal legal rights, etc?
 
Can you give us a poll with some set categories like: enforces social/cultural norms, easy to get a visa, equal legal rights, etc?
Hi,

sorry Iam not so versatile in such things😅. Hmm but you got some interesting points already.

I think somewhere in this forum there already is a thread about how locals see us expats.

I was more interested in how people feel about general government issues. More like the legal stuff or visa stuff. Just in general how does government treats expats and if people have the feeling to be welcome here.

In terms of being helpful, making things possible or just in terms of treating expats as equal as possible compared to citizens.
 
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Indonesia, legally, is not friendly towards long-term foreign residents and those intending to immigrate here. It has among the most restrictive permanent residencies, for example, where even holders of PR (KITAP) are not allowed to freely work, own property, own companies, and/or freely exit/enter the country.

The philosophy towards foreigners is deeply rooted in trauma due to colonialism, and hyper-nationalism is common among most in government and politics. They would rather you come here, spend your money (or transfer your expertise, in case of foreign workers), and then go back to your home country.
 
Going on my twelfth year here now and having permanent residency, I still don't feel like a permanent resident.

I am more cautious about anything having to do with the law (civil or criminal) than I would be in my home country or many western countries. This is because I don't feel like I would necessarily get a fair chance with the authorities and I worry a little that any problem I have could eventually snowball into deportation. I think I worry about this more than others might because I am financially insecure.

To go along with that, I'd say that there are a lot more norms and customary behaviours at play here than in the developed west. I think that if you live in a small town in Italy and the local government wants to pay for something, they will probably put out a notice or tax you. In any event the methods will be codified and documented. Here, I am often left wondering if I am required to do the thing that people are trying to make me do. Do I really need to donate to build another mosque/sports center in the neighborhood? What will happen if I do/don't? How much should I give?

I don't see a clear and reliable (in terms of legality) method of securing an income for foreigners here, unless they are married and working in a family business. Even that is obviously tied to the marriage. And, if you are on a work visa, then it is tied to your employer.

Obviously the inability to own land is a problem if you need to own a home to feel secure in your future.

Really, I would say that I don't feel secure in my place here, in any way. For this reason, when I think about the the future I find it hard to imagine myself being a retired person here one day, unemployable in my home country due to age but subject to be expelled from this country at any time.

It felt different when I was married, I thought someone would fight for/with me. Now I feel like I am just a disappointingly unimportant and poor foreigner, subject to the whims of a government that doesn't particularly want me. Were it not for my child, I would have left already.

To be clear, I do actually like it here as well as anywhere. If I could feel secure here, I would not want to leave. But, as I am starting to think about my growing age, I wonder how many more years I can afford to spend in this place where I have no future.
 
I have been an expat for over 30 years in various countries and have never had a problem in any country with any of the locals - but I submerse myself in the local culture, make a point to be friendly and polite and learn the lingo and treat everyone how I would like to be treated

Hence not once have I ever had trouble with neighbours, police, immigration, taxi, etc etc
It all depends on the individual I guess?

I see some bule rude and obnoxious to locals, don't speak any bahasa Indonesia, then moan about how unfriendly it is. Gee. Really?
 
I learnt a long time ago to keep some distance with most of the locals, here and other countries , yes I always show manners and speak enough of the local language to live , but realize im always a foreigner , even though im married here with kitap lifetime .

They can kick me out with a moments notice , Im always aware of that fact , and Im fairly sure they would if I made a mistake , .god forbid !

The smile can quickly turn into a scowl .

I am also not rich enough to pay off "all and sundry " to secure my future here or in any other developing country .
 
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I've only been here for a few years. Will be here for another few for sure. Looking to marry my partner in the coming years. I think that there is a lot of good advice here. It's good to remember that you're not a citizen and that you don't have the rights of locals. So, any legal dispute, road collision or anything like that, it is likely that the decision will go against you.

Regarding integrating into the local culture, I guess I am still very much in an expat bubble. I generally find most people very agreeable and rarely experience anything that I would consider deliberately rude towards me. The locals I work with, teachers, are awesome and have been very supportive.

I've had a couple of strange experiences. Nothing dangerous, just people randomly stopping me, I like to walk around with my earphones or headphones on to block out the world. Not the most sociable I guess. One guy stopped me in a food court and asked me to buy him and his family dinner, I think. This was recently and in bahasa, so I could be confused. He was dressed quite well and looked well-groomed, so didn't strike me as a beggar... So, there are a few random things that you will experience as a foreigner I guess.

So, as previously mentioned by others, be prepared for a little legal ambiguity and different social norms. For Jakarta, if you can tolerate the traffic and pollution and can operate either in your own expat bubble or with a group of local friends, then I think you will be fine. I do miss things like parks. I would consider living in BSD here if you have a family or want to keep a dog. There are pavements and greener areas out that way. I live in North Jakarta and it is a massive urban sprawl.
 
There is a story of a court case involving a Bule in an accident. He had not been responsible for the accident but the court ruled against him on the basis that if he had not come to Indonesia the accident would never have happened.

That said my experience living here is that Indonesians are generally more polite than Australians and it is pleasant that casual passers by will often smile and give a nod of acknowledgement. As for officials I have found any dealings have been cordial and polite to friendly. Certainly haven't met with the kind of suspicion and hostility experienced entering the US.

I suspect the biggest mistake to make here would be to become indignant and hostile in the event of any kind of disagreement. But that is probably true of living anywhere. Courtesy and respect for others smooths the pathways.
 
I learnt a long time ago to keep some distance with most of the locals, here and other countries , yes I always show manners and speak enough of the local language to live , but realize im always a foreigner , even though im married here with kitap lifetime .

They can kick me out with a moments notice , Im always aware of that fact , and Im fairly sure they would if I made a mistake , .god forbid !

The smile can quickly turn into a scowl .

I am also not rich enough to pay off "all and sundry " to secure my future here or in any other developing country .
Spot on. Same as I always have done.
I don't try to mix with the locals anywhere. I learned to create my own little world / bubble, which in fact is simply a copy of my life and customs in my country.

To answer the OP : I think there is no universal answer, it all depends mainly on you and you "policy". Also in a vast country like Indonesia there are big differences between the locals from one area (island) to another.
And remember, even among themselves they segregate and sometimes look down on people from other islands, other dialects, etc ..
 
There is a story of a court case involving a Bule in an accident. He had not been responsible for the accident but the court ruled against him on the basis that if he had not come to Indonesia the accident would never have happened.

That said my experience living here is that Indonesians are generally more polite than Australians and it is pleasant that casual passers by will often smile and give a nod of acknowledgement. As for officials I have found any dealings have been cordial and polite to friendly. Certainly haven't met with the kind of suspicion and hostility experienced entering the US.

I suspect the biggest mistake to make here would be to become indignant and hostile in the event of any kind of disagreement. But that is probably true of living anywhere. Courtesy and respect for others smooths the pathways.
That sounds more like an old wives tale, than a true story.
 
Thanks to everyone for their answers so far. That's exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread.
Iam pretty busy today, we have to prepare a lot for our daughter's birthday tomorro and will probably be on our feet the whole day. So when I find to time, today or tomorrow, I will also let you know my thoughts on this.
 
This is my experience:
I have always mixed with Indonesian people, I have never lived in an expat bubble and I have mainly avoided most expats :D
I have heard very often Indonesians being surprised and happy that I am not at all 'sombong' or 'arogan', for that I have been welcomed with open arms into the local community.

My husband is a rock musician, I have often been to places with large crowds of drunk and high people yet have never felt unsafe- at most I have felt nervous of being around drugs- I do not use, never have been a user other than smoking a bit of weed way back in my 20s. However I haven't felt comfortable around it as I know I would be the one targeted & paraded in front of the cameras :D.
The fan base of the band have often tried to drag me into every damn selfie & group shot they take, I went along for a while but got pissed with it in the end. I now refuse them or walk away - getting me the sombong name sometimes haha, personally I don't care - I do what I want to do & am comfy with.

My point being as a foreigner - avoid drugs at all costs, because the consequences are dire. Other than that working illegally is a potential deportation situation. Breaking laws are what will get you thrown out, not your day to day traffic laws, these are minor and unlikely to have major consequences.
Live a kind and decent life, being respectful and friendly doesn't mean having to be the middle of the social whirl.
I have conversed with homeless people, I have had 2 of them work at our house in the past. I have never felt threatened by them.
To be fair I interacted with the homeless in the UK & never felt threatened by them either.
People are people, they tend to respond to how you are with them.
I have mixed with the upper echelons too, I find some of these people more distasteful than the poor, if I am being really objective (more so the nouveau riche).
Again it is a mix, some are ace some are slimy.
I stand out in a crowd, I am taller than most & have blonde hair so I have had to 'own' that because I couldn't possibly blend in & be invisible, being kind, confident and respectful are the keys.
 
I have been an expat for over 30 years in various countries and have never had a problem in any country with any of the locals - but I submerse myself in the local culture, make a point to be friendly and polite and learn the lingo and treat everyone how I would like to be treated

Hence not once have I ever had trouble with neighbours, police, immigration, taxi, etc etc
It all depends on the individual I guess?

I see some bule rude and obnoxious to locals, don't speak any bahasa Indonesia, then moan about how unfriendly it is. Gee. Really?
This is the key :) even if one doesn't know much of the language, body language & expressions give a message too.
 
Nice to have a big Indonesian family that look out for me. Generally their advise and counsel keeps me from making an ass out of myself, much to my Indonesian wife's relief. We are in the USA at present but plan to return, probably permanently, in 3 or 4 years; looking forward to moving "home."
 
It took me a bit to answer😅

I gotta say that so far I never had any real problems with the law or government institutions or with the workers. Most of them were friendly and if you meet some government workers with a bad mood, that is nothing too special in any country of the world I guess. 😅
That being said, I still don't have the impression that the laws concerning expats are reall expat friendly, even if you a married to a local person. Sure, usually nobody stands in your way if you fought your way through bureaucracy and have all the documents complete but that's about it. Even as someone who is married to a local I wouldn't say I feel totally save here in terms of protection by the law. Iam not thinking about that permanently or live in fear or something like that 😅, but if someone asks me about I would say I don't feel that safe. I have the feeling that you can never be sure about what the next thing is that makes your life a bit more difficult. Even though it got a lot better in terms of corruption, I still feel that some people still can do too much what they want or make it difficult for you.
I can understand that much of this comes from the conolization trauma and things like that.
In general my fear is that things might get worse. Since the world in general isn't likely to see better times in the future. I also feel like many governments and societies get more comfortable in using all kind of and agreeing with all kind of extremism. I may sound a little bit pessimistic here and I don't claim this as the truth, but it is my gut feeling.

For the people of this country, I really never had a problem with anynone here (except with my neighbor a few months ago, but that was the only problem I ever had). I think that is just due to my personality. Iam easy to adapt and I treat everyone friendly and with respect. I respect the culture and rules, don't look down on people and would never disrespected someone or something on purpose as long as people don't push for it.

Some people here said they don't wanna mix too much with locals or like to live in their bubble in terms of recreating the culture that they are used to. I think everyone should just do what they want with their life, it is fine by me and as long as we respect each other and follow the law no one should tell someone how to live.
That being said, I was never the most social person and Iam more of a loner but i have some good Indonesian friends, they mostly live in Jakarta so I seldom see them since we live in Batam. Even though Iam more of a loner I still like people in general and Iam happy to have a talk with whoever wants to talk but Iam in most cases not the conversation starter. In Indonesia it is nothing special to get approached by locals who are interested in you. Last time I talked in german with my daughter, we were on the playground, and some other man came to me and talked in german.😂 He said he studied in Germany years ago, we had a quite long conversation.
Although I also gotta say that these occasions became lesser from when I visited the first time i 2008. My gut feeling comes up again 😂, I have the personal feeling that some people take more distance now towards foreigners and also towards people with a different religion. Maybe Iam wrong here, but I can't shake the feeling. That goes kinda hand in hand with the feeling that many people get more attracted to extreme ideas.
Overall I get along with most people. My wife is of chinese ethnic and although some Chinese tend to be a little bit arrogant and stuff, our family is not. Without wanting to brag I can say that we are friends to some of the richest but also some of the poorest familys here and we always had friends with vastly different backgrounds. If you know a bit about Indonesia then you know that a Chinese/Bule couple is probably often seen as the epitome of money and arrogance. Both of that is not us.😂😂
Oh and like Bad_azz said, I also never was someone who actively seeked contact with other expats. I don't even know any expat besides the people here in this forum. I also not actively choose to not know expats but maybe I just was never in these circles so far and I don't actively force it. The only expat I know is the husband of our niece, he is from India.

Well i already talked quite a lot of uninteresting stuff😅 .

The only things I want to add is what others already said. Stay respectful, don't get into the kind of trouble that gets you involved with the law and surly stay away from drugs.
 
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