Indonesia Delays $20 Billion Climate Plan

[snpark]

On the contrary cars here are way over priced. A mini Cooper here costs more than a range rover in dubai
The "cheap" cars here are the Chinese and Malaysian ones made out of cardboard with no suspension

A cheap car in Europe is a Ford fiesta or Renault 5 or VW golf. All of those here (if you can even find one) are pushing towards 1b fully loaded.

 

[Hawk256]

On the contrary cars here are way over priced. A mini Cooper here costs more than a range rover in dubai
The "cheap" cars here are the Chinese and Malaysian ones made out of cardboard with no suspension

A cheap car in Europe is a Ford fiesta or Renault 5 or VW golf. All of those here (if you can even find one) are pushing towards 1b fully loaded.

Thailand and Vietnam have no problems with being overcrowded with cars to any extent like Indoneisa and cars there cost more than they do here. When I lived Thailand years ago even a Yaris was equilivent to $30,000 US at the time. You can buy a new car here for less than $15,000 US. Of course you are going to pay big money for a European car. Those aren't what are clogging up the roads.

 

[centurion]

A disadvantage of this is that a significant proportion of vehicles (cars, pickups, trucks and buses) that do not meet emission standards belong to people who cannot afford a new vehicle. Enforcing strict emission laws would put these people out of work and it would further widen the gap between rich and poor.

Coal powerplants should get filters, while making the coal emmission standards more strict. That will give immidiate effect, and the government should pay for it, because they are posioning the people, also, should stop gaslighting the people with stories about car pollution.

 

[flavus]

A disadvantage of this is that a significant proportion of vehicles (cars, pickups, trucks and buses) that do not meet emission standards belong to people who cannot afford a new vehicle. Enforcing strict emission laws would put these people out of work and it would further widen the gap between rich and poor.

Yeah... there needs to be incentives provided to scrap older cars as well.

But this would be pricey, so... cleaning the power grid first is probably a good idea anyway.

Charging STNK based on how much a vehicle pollutes and how much it weighs too. Slowly start penalizing pollution but more gradually than an immediate ban.

 

[Bob]

A disadvantage of this is that a significant proportion of vehicles (cars, pickups, trucks and buses) that do not meet emission standards belong to people who cannot afford a new vehicle. Enforcing strict emission laws would put these people out of work and it would further widen the gap between rich and poor.

So, better public transportation is needed. Ideally a system which makes car ownership unnecessary to get to and from work. Then enforce emissions limits.

 

[Bob]

Cars are too cheap in Indoneisa. Look at the surronding countries and you don't see as many cars. The reason, they are more expensive and most people can't afford one. Here the prices are low enough that so many more people can buy a car than there is enough infastructure ot handle that amout of traffic.

I don't know, have you been to KL lately? Or Manila? Lots of cars there.
Singapore's plan of prohibitive car ownership costs requires good public transportation to enable folks to get around without a car. Jakarta doesn't have close to a good public transportation system.

 

[Bob]

When that time has come, they might have found a new technology. Just look at the rise of fiber-optic cable as a replacement for metals, especially copper, in communication lines. In EV battery recycling the battery separating various components of the battery to create a new battery or other products is a very visible option. Nowadays, there are already a few startup companies that have started doing this. It is still very expensive compared to directly mining it from the earth, so not many people want to do that. But it will become cheaper as the technology advances. Also it could be boosted by the government incentive, subsidy, funding in the research.

In the past not many people want copper but nowadays put copper in your front yard, people will take it as they could easily sell it. Once people find effective and efficient ways to extract lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt, graphite, and other metals and rare earth materials from the battery, the problem with the battery is solved.

The debate between Cornucopianism vs Malthusianism has been ongoing for centuries. No view is a clear winner..



Yes, it is true that batteries need charging, and that charging comes from another form of energy, such as electricity. But who on earth could generate energy ? Whatever people do, whatever technology may come in the future, there will be no technology that could generate energy from thin air. The energy we obtain always comes from the conversion of another form of energy. This is well stated in the first law of thermodynamics in Physics, the so called the law of energy conservation. At least the EV could improve the city air quality in Jakarta. The power stations are not located in the dense residential area. They might still use fossil fuels but the option to replace them with a more green, renewables form of energies is more viable outside the city centre as the technology advances.

Are you up to speed on hydrogen cells? I'm not well versed in them but that seems rather like generating energy from thin air. Apparently if and when the bugs are worked out it will be far greener than battery power.

 

[Bob]

Electric vehicles (EVs) are very useful in Jakarta, considering the current air quality in the city caused by the internal combustion engine (ICE) and the traffic congestion.

Maybe useful in Jakarta but other areas pay dearly. Indonesian mining, reclamation, and power generation practices aren't so green, to put it mildly, especially when PRC companies lead the projects.

 

[flavus]

EVs are still cleaner even when powered with coal by the way

Yes, Electric Cars Are Cleaner, Even When The Power Comes From Coal

One argument that has been made against electric vehicles is that we must decarbonise the power system first otherwise cars are no cleaner than if they use gasoline. But a new study suggests that EVs help to tackle climate change in all but the most coal-reliant countries - 95% of markets globally.

www.forbes.com

Part of it is that power plants run at peak efficiency, while car engines do not (often they are idle, or operate far from their peak torque). The best internal combustion engines, in Formula 1, are about 40% efficient, normal engines are way worse.

And regenerative braking is a big factor too. When I turn it off in my EV to clean the brakes, energy consumption is around 20% worse.

That being said, I agree transitioning too fast will be too costly for Indonesia. But imposing a heavy pollution and weight tax on large SUVs - and cleaning up the power generation - definitely can. Also incentivizing mild hybrids - you don't need a large battery to take advantage of regenerative braking.

Going too fast will backfire, look at the Gillet Jaunes in France.

As for mining ... if Indonesia doesn't use it, batteries will still be produced either in country or with Indonesian sourced nickel anyway.

 

[Bob]

EVs are still cleaner even when powered with coal by the way

Yes, Electric Cars Are Cleaner, Even When The Power Comes From Coal

One argument that has been made against electric vehicles is that we must decarbonise the power system first otherwise cars are no cleaner than if they use gasoline. But a new study suggests that EVs help to tackle climate change in all but the most coal-reliant countries - 95% of markets globally.

www.forbes.com

Part of it is that power plants run at peak efficiency, while car engines do not (often they are idle, or operate far from their peak torque). The best internal combustion engines, in Formula 1, are about 40% efficient, normal engines are way worse.

And regenerative braking is a big factor too. When I turn it off in my EV to clean the brakes, energy consumption is around 20% worse.

That being said, I agree transitioning too fast will be too costly for Indonesia. But imposing a heavy pollution and weight tax on large SUVs - and cleaning up the power generation - definitely can. Also incentivizing mild hybrids - you don't need a large battery to take advantage of regenerative braking.

Going too fast will backfire, look at the Gillet Jaunes in France.

As for mining ... if Indonesia doesn't use it, batteries will still be produced either in country or with Indonesian sourced nickel anyway.

That's it's cleaner even with coal power is very doubtful. We know that Indonesia's producing the nickel at great environmental cost so the 'if not Indonesia then somewhere else' argument is specious.

 

[Hawk256]

EVs are still cleaner even when powered with coal by the way

Yes, Electric Cars Are Cleaner, Even When The Power Comes From Coal

One argument that has been made against electric vehicles is that we must decarbonise the power system first otherwise cars are no cleaner than if they use gasoline. But a new study suggests that EVs help to tackle climate change in all but the most coal-reliant countries - 95% of markets globally.

www.forbes.com

A lot of arguements against that being fact. Some studies by a litte and some by a lot. They certianly can't all be right. The average I have seen is break even with your carbon footprint at 7 or 8 years with an EV on coal power but then it's time for a battery again and you go back to the negative footprint again. I have seen one study say that it would take 15 years to break even and there is no way a battery is going to last that long. So in that case you can never win with an EV on coal power. Here is a link to one of the doomsday scenario cases and whether they think it is accruate or not.

Electric car: 697,612 km to become green! True or false? - Damien Ernst

Author: Prof. Damien Ernst, University of Liège Very recently, the RTBF, a Belgian media outlet, published an article titled « Electric car: 697.612 km to become green! » I had given an interview to the journalist Gérald Wéry about this article, and I made some calculations. So yes, under...

blogs.ulg.ac.be

 

[pantaiema]

Are you up to speed on hydrogen cells? I'm not well versed in them but that seems rather like generating energy from thin air. Apparently if and when the bugs are worked out it will be far greener than battery power.

I am indeed understand about fuel cells. It is difficult to discuss the first law of thermodynamics, such as the law of energy conservation, with people who might not understand physics or do not have an engineering background. This energy conservation law is a fundamental principle in science that governs our universe. Generally speaking, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. This is a simple explanation of Energy Conservation Law for non technical people.



You can produce hydrogen from water or water droplets, for example, H2O. However, to separate H2 (hydrogen) from O2 (oxygen), you need another form of energy. Hydrogen as fuel has been known since ages. But producing hydrogen such as from the separation of water is still very expensive if it is compared to fossil fuels.

The same principle applies to the generators; they do not create/generate energy. Instead, they convert mechanical power into electrical power. This mechanical power originates from combustion engines, turbines powered by steam, potential energy from water dams, etc.

Certainly, low emission vehicles powered by Electric battery and Hydrogen fuel cells could run hand in hand to improve city air quality. That is what is currently happening.

 

[flavus]

Are you up to speed on hydrogen cells? I'm not well versed in them but that seems rather like generating energy from thin air. Apparently if and when the bugs are worked out it will be far greener than battery power.

The lack of battery to recycle, maybe (though note that batteries are getting recycled). But on the efficiency front -- both hydrogen and synthetic fuel can't win against battery EVs. You need to produce the hydrogen, entailing efficiency loss greater than charging up a battery. Synthetic fuels are even worse because you then burn it in an internal combustion engine -- so your maximum efficiency on that part is 20%-40%, multiplied by the efficiency of generating the fuel in the first place.

At least with hydrogen you effectively have an electric vehicle, just with a fuel cell as the storage medium - so it's possible. The infrastructure for keeping hydrogen liquid is expensive though. Toyota tried for years, and a friend who is really into hydrogen cars and all things Japanese tried it for a few months before giving up.

 

[Samoerai]

You can produce hydrogen from water or water droplets, for example, H2O. However, to separate H2 (hydrogen) from O2 (oxygen), you need another form of energy. Hydrogen as fuel has been known since ages. But producing hydrogen such as from the separation of water is still very expensive if it is compared to fossil fuels.

In the Netherlands they already starting with hydrogen .. in Hydrogen Valley.

 

[Hughes]

Indonesia Delays Investment Plan for $20 Billion Climate Deal

Indonesia Delays $20 Billion Climate Plan

Smart move in my opinion...if China isn't on board, then why should anyone else move forward with these policies?

There's more than meets the eye when it comes to "Politics", & it sure isn't about "Climate Change/Global Warming". Which BTW, I survived the Midwest/Texas heatwave of 1980. We had around 100 straight days with temps above 100 degrees F. Some parts of Texas reached above 117 degrees. And to top it all off, NO RAIN during that time! But of course you'll never hear about that on "Mainstream News" because it's not in their script.

 

[Hughes]

The best thing Indonesia should do to fight pollution should be to find a way to force the locals to stop having more than 1 child per family. But I doubt that would ever happen, just like all the trash they allow to pile up everywhere, as if the locals are happy to live in their own waste, which it appears that they are!

 

[vocalneal]

Can you imagine what would happen to the power grid in any country if even half the people got a new EV overnight?

I read somewhere that there is not enough electricity generated in the US for all to have electric cars.

 

[Hawk256]

I read somewhere that there is not enough electricity generated in the US for all to have electric cars.

There are a lot of places that can't meet the power demands now. No way they can function if all these high powered chargers are added. These chargers would also have to be staggered for time usage. Impossible for everyone to use their chargers at the same time. A lot of detials still need worked out. I don't think a lot people understand the amount of current that these chargers require for fast charging.

 

[centurion]

I read somewhere that there is not enough electricity generated in the US for all to have electric cars.

And there is not even enough nickel for that as well.

 

[Bob]

And there is not even enough nickel for that as well.

Maybe there will be after half of Halmahera and a big chunk of Sulawesi is strip mined.