Indonesia Delays $20 Billion Climate Plan

[serious_fun]

Indonesia Delays Investment Plan for $20 Billion Climate Deal

Indonesia Delays $20 Billion Climate Plan

Smart move in my opinion...if China isn't on board, then why should anyone else move forward with these policies?

 

[flavus]

If the financing is not settled, probably not a bad idea to delay.

Once the financing is there and if the new power plants will be cost competitive though, delaying might mean losing out on funding.

The $3.5 trillion figure is ... ouch, $12.5k per capita. 2.6x income per capita per https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=ID

I really don't see how rich countries would ever shoulder much of this, and yet it's so obvious they should or we'll get nowhere

 

[Samoerai]

A hundred of electric buses will soon be operated by the Provincial Government of DKI Jakarta's Department of Transportation to combat the capital's deteriorating air quality owing to pollution. Using electric buses is an endeavour to promote the usage of electric vehicles, according to the DKI Jakarta’s Department of Transportation. It follows that Jakarta's air quality should be better managed.

The Director of the DKI Jakarta’s Provincial Transportation Agency, Syafrin Liputo, stated at a press conference that was held at the Office of the Director General of Pollution Control and Environmental Damage, Jakarta, on Friday, the 11th of August 2023, "PT Transjakarta will operate up to 100 electric buses this year to encourage electrification in public transportation services."

PT Transjakarta Adds 26 Electric Buses

Djakarta Passenger Transportation Corporation (Perum PPD) and PT Transportasi Jakarta (Transjakarta), signed a cooperation agreement for the procurement and operation of 26 electric buses at the Singosari Room, Hotel Borobudur,…

m.beritajakarta.id

 

[pantaiema]

Indonesia Delays Investment Plan for $20 Billion Climate Deal

Indonesia Delays $20 Billion Climate Plan

Smart move in my opinion...if China isn't on board, then why should anyone else move forward with these policies?

Absolutely. Especially for those which do not have a direct benefit or directly cause environmental degradation on Indonesian soil in a relatively short term.

This cunning idea actually stems from a country like China or many Asian countries. It's always a smart idea to become a free rider and ask other people to pay for it.

Just sit down and watch Greta Thunberg, Fridays for Future (FFF), Letzte Generation, Extinction Rebellion, or the like do the job for you. If they dared to do it in China, they would be chased with batons or strangled to the ground and arrested.

 

[pantaiema]

A hundred of electric buses will soon be operated by the Provincial Government of DKI Jakarta's Department of Transportation to combat the capital's deteriorating air quality owing to pollution. Using electric buses is an endeavour to promote the usage of electric vehicles, according to the DKI Jakarta’s Department of Transportation. It follows that Jakarta's air quality should be better managed.

The Director of the DKI Jakarta’s Provincial Transportation Agency, Syafrin Liputo, stated at a press conference that was held at the Office of the Director General of Pollution Control and Environmental Damage, Jakarta, on Friday, the 11th of August 2023, "PT Transjakarta will operate up to 100 electric buses this year to encourage electrification in public transportation services."

PT Transjakarta Adds 26 Electric Buses

Djakarta Passenger Transportation Corporation (Perum PPD) and PT Transportasi Jakarta (Transjakarta), signed a cooperation agreement for the procurement and operation of 26 electric buses at the Singosari Room, Hotel Borobudur,…

m.beritajakarta.id

Electric vehicles (EVs) are very useful in Jakarta, considering the current air quality in the city caused by the internal combustion engine (ICE) and the traffic congestion.

 

[snpark]

EVs still need batteries and electricity though

 

[fastpitch17]

Electric vehicles (EVs) are very useful in Jakarta, considering the current air quality in the city caused by the internal combustion engine (ICE) and the traffic congestion.

Ya, batteries and electric motors don't pollute. Ah, batteries need charging and that comes from electricity. Electricity produced with fossel fuels that do pollute. If Jakarta really wanted to combat air pollution they would address open burning which takes place in every neighborhood and construction site. Indonesia, if we can't burn it them we will just toss it in a gutter, river, ocean. Gee, no air pollution.

 

[Hawk256]

Studies have shown and I have said before, if you are charging your EV with fossil fuel, you may never get back the carbon footprint offeset from making the batteries and if you do it is time to replace the battery and go back to beginning again. Until we have clean electicity or a massive improvement in battery technology, EV's don't seem to be the answer.

 

[pantaiema]

Studies have shown and I have said before, if you are charging your EV with fossil fuel, you may never get back the carbon footprint offeset from making the batteries and if you do it is time to replace the battery and go back to beginning again. Until we have clean electicity or a massive improvement in battery technology, EV's don't seem to be the answer.

When that time has come, they might have found a new technology. Just look at the rise of fiber-optic cable as a replacement for metals, especially copper, in communication lines. In EV battery recycling the battery separating various components of the battery to create a new battery or other products is a very visible option. Nowadays, there are already a few startup companies that have started doing this. It is still very expensive compared to directly mining it from the earth, so not many people want to do that. But it will become cheaper as the technology advances. Also it could be boosted by the government incentive, subsidy, funding in the research.

In the past not many people want copper but nowadays put copper in your front yard, people will take it as they could easily sell it. Once people find effective and efficient ways to extract lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt, graphite, and other metals and rare earth materials from the battery, the problem with the battery is solved.

The debate between Cornucopianism vs Malthusianism has been ongoing for centuries. No view is a clear winner..

EVs still need batteries and electricity though

Yes, it is true that batteries need charging, and that charging comes from another form of energy, such as electricity. But who on earth could generate energy ? Whatever people do, whatever technology may come in the future, there will be no technology that could generate energy from thin air. The energy we obtain always comes from the conversion of another form of energy. This is well stated in the first law of thermodynamics in Physics, the so called the law of energy conservation. At least the EV could improve the city air quality in Jakarta. The power stations are not located in the dense residential area. They might still use fossil fuels but the option to replace them with a more green, renewables form of energies is more viable outside the city centre as the technology advances.

 

[flavus]

Ya, batteries and electric motors don't pollute. Ah, batteries need charging and that comes from electricity. Electricity produced with fossel fuels that do pollute. If Jakarta really wanted to combat air pollution they would address open burning which takes place in every neighborhood and construction site. Indonesia, if we can't burn it them we will just toss it in a gutter, river, ocean. Gee, no air pollution.

Well, that's why electricity generation needs to be tackled at the same time. At the very least EVs generate less noise pollution, and for certain use cases it's very feasible to generate at least some of the energy with solar panels (eg if you have a fleet of EV buses or delivery vehicles)

We talk about China not doing this - but that is simply untrue. Look at all the EV and solar panel investments there. Or nuclear power plants. China just refuses to follow the West's dictated timeline.

Indonesia, meanwhile, is still planning coal power plants...

 

[Hawk256]

Once people find effective and efficient ways to extract lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt, graphite, and other metals and rare earth materials from the battery, the problem with the battery is solved.

Once we find a cure for cancer, most of our health problems are solved, once we can travel faster than light, we can go from star to star and explore. Sadly that isn't helping us today and probably won't be for years. Could it happen? Of course. The question is how likely is to happen before a different kind of power source alltogether is discovered? The current batteries are just not the answer to the problem. They move the existing problem from on place to another and create new problems on top of that. Can you imagine what would happen to the power grid in any country if even half the people got a new EV overnight? Putting the cart before the horse is usually not the best idea.

 

[flavus]

Can you imagine what would happen to the power grid in any country if even half the people got a new EV overnight

That is a bit of a straw man fallacy though

• that definitely won't happen
• even if it does, the estimate at least in the US is that 80% of owners travel very short distance daily and thus can charge at home -- at night
• demand is much lower at night so utilities won't have problem supplying the electricity needs

Granted that doesn't help everyone but it is definitely feasible both for fleet vehicles and owners who have garages.

And also why improving the electrical grid and shifting away from coal especially, but also natural gas, is a priority. Not too familiar with Indonesia's situation anymore, I could certainly see this country putting the cart before the horse as that just seems... typical (EVs are sexier than power plants)

Heck for many years I wonder why they don't encourage the production and sale of mild hybrids like the Prius C (very compact so fits nicely on narrow roads) - it sells quite well in Malaysia

 

[centurion]

The problem with Indonesian electriity is that is coming from coal, but the coal itself is a less problem as Indonesian coal is a low sulphur/low ash one. The problem are the powerplants that do not have installed enough filtering capabilities that are on par even with Chinese standards. As the first step, better filtering should be installed on the powerplants, and it will have immidate effect.

For Jakarta, the part of the solution would be to increase the bus fleet from existing 2.000 buses to 10.000 buses,as well as the trains, so people could commute effectively.

"Despite the enormous health impacts of particulatematter pollution, Indonesia has no air quality standardsfor PM2.5, no standards for yearly average PM10 levels,and only a very weak standard of 150μg/m3 for dailyPM10 levels. There is almost no air quality monitoringin Indonesia. From everyday experience it is clear thatair pollution is a serious issue e.g. on much of Java andSumatra, but there is little hard data made available bythe government.
In comparison, China, a country suffering seriousproblems due to PM2.5, applies Class1 standards of35µg/m3 annual mean and 15µg/m3 24-hour mean tospecial regions like national parks. Other countries likethe U.S., Japan, and Canada apply annual and 24-hourPM2.5 standards of 35µg/m3 & 12µg/m3, 35 µg/m3 &15µg/m3 and 28 µg/m3 & 10µg/m3, respectively."

https://www.greenpeace.org/static/planet4-indonesia-stateless/2019/02/676f10e5-676f10e5-full-report-human-cost-of-coal-power.pdf

 

[centurion]

Indonesian coal powerplant emmission standards:

Table 2: Air emissions standards for coal-basedpower plants, 2008. Emission standards remain considerably weak, especially for NOx and SO2

Parameter Unit Old plants New plants SO2 mg/m3 750 750 NOX mg/m3 850 750 PM mg/m3 150 100 Opacity per cent 20 20

The prescribed norms for emissions control in Indonesia are very loosecompared to the standards set in developed and major developing countries,especially in case of SO2 and NOx (which ranges between 100 to 200 mg/m3globally).

http://cdn.cseindia.org/attachments/0.24019600_1505211059_indonesias-coal-power-emission-norms-lessons-from-India-china.pdf

 

[flavus]

Despite the enormous health impacts of particulatematter pollution, Indonesia has no air quality standardsfor PM2.5, no standards for yearly average PM10 levels,and only a very weak standard of 150μg/m3 for dailyPM10 levels.

Indeed - Jakarta makes the top list of polluted worldwide cities frequently

An old study put the cost at a loss of IQ points of around 2.5 IIRC, back when lead was still used as petrol additive.

Using pollution reduction as the driver for environmental cleanup would be sensible

 

[pantaiema]

Jakarta Air Quality Index (AQI) and Indonesia Air Pollution | IQAir

Jakarta Air Quality Index (AQI) is now Unhealthy. Get real-time, historical and forecast PM2.5 and weather data. Read the air pollution in Jakarta, Indonesia with AirVisual.

www.iqair.com

The PM2.5 concentration in Jakarta is currently 7 times the WHO's annual air quality guideline value. People who live in or frequently travel to Jakarta will understand why. Sometimes, you can observe the air turning dark when old vehicles accelerate on the streets of Jakarta. Emission checks are not fully enforced.

Even though the power plant is using coal, the emissions from vehicles are much higher & more severe than the ones caused by fossil fuel power plants, when comparing solely based on the output power. Additionally, most of the geothermal power plants are in non residential area far away from Jakarta.

 

[centurion]

Jakarta Air Quality Index (AQI) and Indonesia Air Pollution | IQAir

Jakarta Air Quality Index (AQI) is now Unhealthy. Get real-time, historical and forecast PM2.5 and weather data. Read the air pollution in Jakarta, Indonesia with AirVisual.

www.iqair.com

View attachment 3335
The PM2.5 concentration in Jakarta is currently 7 times the WHO's annual air quality guideline value. People who live in or frequently travel to Jakarta will understand why. Sometimes, you can observe the air turning dark when old vehicles accelerate on the streets of Jakarta. Emission checks are not fully enforced.

Even though the power plant is using coal, the emissions from vehicles are much higher & more severe than the ones caused by fossil fuel power plants, when comparing solely based on the output power. Additionally, most of the geothermal power plants are in non residential area far away from Jakarta.

PM2.5 concentration in Jakarta is currently 15.4 times the WHO annual air quality guideline value

 

[rabbit_39]

Jakarta air pollution - adopt the latest emission standards for vehicles and actually implement vehicle emissions checks. No need to rush EVs which are charged through coal fired power plants anyway in Java.

 

[Pak Tani]

Jakarta air pollution - adopt the latest emission standards for vehicles and actually implement vehicle emissions checks. No need to rush EVs which are charged through coal fired power plants anyway in Java.

A disadvantage of this is that a significant proportion of vehicles (cars, pickups, trucks and buses) that do not meet emission standards belong to people who cannot afford a new vehicle. Enforcing strict emission laws would put these people out of work and it would further widen the gap between rich and poor.

 

[Hawk256]

Cars are too cheap in Indoneisa. Look at the surronding countries and you don't see as many cars. The reason, they are more expensive and most people can't afford one. Here the prices are low enough that so many more people can buy a car than there is enough infastructure ot handle that amout of traffic.