I am shock, they want to DEPORTASI my daughter

Saudade

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
152
I am from Europe, my husband is from Indonesia, we have a daughter who was born in 2005 in Indonesia, she has two passports, first we made the Indonesian passport and after the European passport, we never though or knew we had to do something else, we took for granted everything was ok and was normal to have two passports
We went yesterday and today to the immigration office to renew her passport and they told us, my daughter can be deportasi and we have to go overseas and enter again to Indonesia and apply for a Kitas for her.
It seems like we had to have done something before 2010 but we have not idea about that, how come we can know it if nobody tell us?
We made her passport when she was born in 2005, they knew from the documentation her mother is from Europe (like they knew now), we renewed the passport in 2010 and in 2015 and in all the cases they knew her mother was from Europe, why they didn´t tell us in 2005, 2010 or 2015 what we had to do?
How come my daughter just can lost her Indonesian nationality like this?
PLEASE PLEASE ATLANTIS OR SOMEBODY ELSE COULD HELP US? we are totally lost and in shock. She is in the school, we are preparing our trip to go to Europe in June.
 

jstar

Mr. 10,000
Joined
Jul 31, 2016
Messages
4,140
Read this first so you know the background:


In all fairness, it must be said that this has been communicated multiple times, even on different forums and in the press.

A child born after 2006 from a mixed marriage (as yours), has dual citizenship when registered (until they choose of course). But the ones born before that date, needed to apply for this and the deadline was August 2010.

And if you didn't apply, the situation is peculiar and in fact illegal. Your child is in a situation rather similar to other Indonesians who got caught with passports from multiple countries.

Perhaps @atlantis has some other ideas but I would lawyer up. If it helps? I'm afraid you will have to make some hard choices.
 
Last edited:

Saudade

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
152
jstar, sorry, do you mean it was our fault and we should have know this with nobody letting us know?
It is obvious we didn´t read it on the press or on the forums.
We renewed her passport in February 2010 before the deadline in august 2010, don´t you think they should have told us this?
 

jstar

Mr. 10,000
Joined
Jul 31, 2016
Messages
4,140
I guess they could have done a better job yes. Now I'm afraid this could also still have repercussions for children from mixed marriages born after 1999, who are living abroad. They probably also assume they are entitled to a dual citizenship. And as far as I know, no Indonesian embassy has ever actively contacted citizens abroad to warn them, back in 2010.
 

dafluff

Moderator
Moderator
Cager
Joined
Jul 13, 2016
Messages
3,216
Sorry to hear about your troubles @Saudade

The bad news is, if your child was born before August 2006 (new citizenship law that allows dual nationality), and you did not apply for dual nationality for them by Aug 2010, then they are in fact single national only.

It seems so far immigration has accepted that your child is WNI only, which is allowed, even with a parent from another country. As our article about getting an Indonesian passport for dual-national children, one of the documents required is a signed statement from the parents that the child does not have a foreign passport.

Therefore their Indonesian passport was issued. The situation became complicated this time when they found out about the foreign passport. Obtaining a foreign nationality, for a non-dual citizen, means that Indonesian nationality must be given up. This is I'm afraid the situation you are finding yourself in right now.

The good news, if you can call it that, is that they are being a bit lenient and are giving you the option to process KITAS. Maybe someone here can suggest a better option?
 

jstar

Mr. 10,000
Joined
Jul 31, 2016
Messages
4,140
Personally I know (about) quite some people (adults and children) who are not from mixed parents (i.e. full Indonesian families) and still have multiple passports. You can easily guess how.

When thinking about the possible consequences when caught, I'm quite sure the Indonesians would get away with it by giving up their foreign passport and thus citizenship. The problem is with a mixed marriage that they automatically seem to assume the foreign citizenship is the one the parents have chosen. (Also because there was an approval procedure of a couple of months of course. Giving a 'false' statement about another passport doesn't mean that at all.) So perhaps with legal assistance that could be challenged?

Assuming it is one or the other, I do wonder though if you would want to change it, if you could. So then there is nothing to challenge and we are back to square one.
 
Last edited:

Saudade

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
152
Read this first so you know the background:


In all fairness, it must be said that this has been communicated multiple times, even on different forums and in the press.

A child born after 2006 from a mixed marriage (as yours), has dual citizenship when registered (until they choose of course). But the ones born before that date, needed to apply for this and the deadline was August 2010.

And if you didn't apply, the situation is peculiar and in fact illegal. Your child is in a situation rather similar to other Indonesians who got caught with passports from multiple countries.

Perhaps @atlantis has some other ideas but I would lawyer up. If it helps? I'm afraid you will have to make some hard choices.
Jstar, I am curious, do you know when the law appeared saying the children born before 2006, needed to apply for the dual citizenship and the deadline was in 2010?
 

Saudade

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
152
Personally I know (about) quite some people (adults and children) who are not from mixed parents (i.e. full Indonesian families) and still have multiple passports. You can easily guess how.

When thinking about the possible consequences when caught, I'm quite sure the Indonesians would get away with it by giving up their foreign passport and thus citizenship. The problem is with a mixed marriage that they automatically seem to assume the foreign citizenship is the one the parents have chosen. (A false statement about a passport doesn't mean that.) So perhaps with legal assistance that could be challenged?

Assuming it is one or the other, I do wonder though if you would want to change it, if you could. So then there is nothing to challenge and we are back to square one.
My child is clear and sure she wants to have the Indonesian one, to be honest I have think about this since she was born but because I took for granted she will have to choose when she will be 21 years old I didn´t ever made my mind on this. This is five years before!
 

jstar

Mr. 10,000
Joined
Jul 31, 2016
Messages
4,140
Jstar, I am curious, do you know when the law appeared saying the children born before 2006, needed to apply for the dual citizenship and the deadline was in 2010?
Yes, that's UU 12/2006. And in PP 2 of 2007 the mandatory reporting for the affidavit is mentioned.

The deadlines were 1 August btw.
 

Saudade

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
152
Sorry to hear about your troubles @Saudade

The bad news is, if your child was born before August 2006 (new citizenship law that allows dual nationality), and you did not apply for dual nationality for them by Aug 2010, then they are in fact single national only.

It seems so far immigration has accepted that your child is WNI only, which is allowed, even with a parent from another country. As our article about getting an Indonesian passport for dual-national children, one of the documents required is a signed statement from the parents that the child does not have a foreign passport.

Therefore their Indonesian passport was issued. The situation became complicated this time when they found out about the foreign passport. Obtaining a foreign nationality, for a non-dual citizen, means that Indonesian nationality must be given up. This is I'm afraid the situation you are finding yourself in right now.

The good news, if you can call it that, is that they are being a bit lenient and are giving you the option to process KITAS. Maybe someone here can suggest a better option?
Ok, we didn´t apply for dual nationality because we had not idea we had to, but them as you said they are in fact single national only, but why they assumed now she is foreigner and not Indonesian?
I guess if she supposed not to have dual nationality, she could be now only Indonesian citizen as well right? why they are choosing for us and saying now our daughter is European and foreigner in the country she was born and have been living for 15 years?
She was born in Indonesia, she has the birth certificate from Indonesia and her father is Indonesian (some people is telling me the children follow the nationality of the father) and she has been having a Indonesian passport for 15 years.
We made her Indonesian passport when she was 7 months old in 2005, I went to the immigration office as well (so it was clear the mother was foreigner) and nobody was asking us a signed statement that she didn´t have an foreign passport or nobody told us about dual citizens or these things, after a few months we wanted to go to Europe and we made her European passport and we never though we were doing something wrong.
 

sumyunggai

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
322
I suggest to refer to my post here:

https://www.expatindo.org/community/threads/mixed-children-before-1st-august-2006.4712/

The child was Indonesian at birth and obtained an Indonesian passport validly in 2005.

The next question is when was Spanish nationality obtained? If this was before 1st August 2006, then the UU 62/1958 would apply. And in this case it's possible that Indonesian nationality was lost at the point Spanish nationality was obtained.

If it was after 1st August 2006, then UU 12/2006 applies to this.

According to Article 41 of UU 12/2006, children born before 1st August 2006

"Anak yang lahir sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 4 huruf c, huruf d, huruf h, huruf l ... sebelum Undang-Undang ini diundangkan dan belum berusia 18 (delapan belas) tahun atau belum kawin memperoleh Kewarganegaraan Republik Indonesia berdasarkan UndangUndang ini dengan mendaftarkan diri kepada Menteri melalui Pejabat atau Perwakilan Republik Indonesia paling lambat 4 (empat) tahun setelah Undang-Undang ini diundangkan. "

I.e. children born before the law can obtain Indonesian citizenship by registering within 4 years of the law being passed.

However your child had already obtained Indonesian citizenship.

The wording of Article 23 of UU 12/06 is the same as UU 62/1958, that Indonesian nationality is lost if foreign nationality is lost of their own will.

So it is not clear in that degree if there is in fact any difference between pre-2006 and post-2006 children in that under both laws you could either argue that they lost Indonesian nationality by obtaining foreign citizenship, or you could argue that they didn't because they didn't do it of their own free will (being children).

In either case it seems clear that your child cannot hold two passports.

As an Indonesian at birth it is my experience that you might be simply able to surrender the Spanish passport and it has been argued that loss of nationality is not in fact automatic but must be published.

However if it is true that the child lost Indonesian citizenship when they obtained foreign citizenship, then you must consider the case of resuming lost Indonesian nationality. This I think would not be easy as their immigration status should effectively be that they are not a legal resident of Indonesia, so they should not qualify. In this case you should obtain KITAS, which can be lawfully obtained as a child of an Indonesian citizen, or indeed as a former-Indonesian citizen.

But that would not be a good result.

Basically the scenario that you are facing is that as @jstar mentions, you can often simply throw the foreign passport away and try again to get the Indonesian one. But the question is to what extent you have made a black mark on the records by dealing with immigration. Essentially in 2010 they were not so concerned about this, but now they are more concerned so they will look at passports and ask questions like 'where were you from this date to this date, you don't have an entry stamp in another country'. So if you know to lie then you can try to lie, and if you have been careful then they can't prove anything. But if you don't lie, or your Indonesian passport has evidence that you have a second passport then you cannot do anything.

And of course maybe you prefer to keep the Spanish citizenship and obtain a KITAS? Because at this point you definitely cannot keep both.
 

Saudade

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
152
thanks a lot for replying and give us so much information and advices sumyunggai!
I need to have clear something very important and I am apologize because English is not my first language, beside this topic about laws are not easy ones to follow, so sometimes it can take me a while to understand, but the problem here it was, the children was born from mix marriage in Indonesia before 2006 were not allowed to have two passports right? it is this the origin of the problem?
I need to have clear that please!

I don't want to focus on who are to blame, because at this point it is not worthy and our lack of information was clear as well, but in that case, don't you think the Spanish Embassy should have told us as well when we made her Spanish passport? They knew the father is Indonesian and if in Indonesia that time, children from mix marriage born in Indonesia was not allow to have two passports, why they made her Spanish passport and they didn't told us it was not allow to hold two different passports if we have the Indonesian one already?
We made her Indonesian passport in March in 2005 after she was born, and in September 2005 when we wanted to go to Spain to visit my family, we made her Spanish passport on the Embassy in Jakarta, because we thought it was the normal thing to do, at that time we didn't have idea she could not have two passports and nobody on the Spanish Embassy inform us as well about that.
Her Indonesian passport will expired in March this year and her Spanish passport will expire in August this year.
I was thinking if it could be possible to, no renew the Spanish passport, so she will not have two passports and try again to apply for her Indonesian passport from zero, because in that case she only will have one passport.
Thanks a lot to all of you who are trying to help us in this terrible experience, I am very lost and panic, hard to believe this is happening.
Have a beautiful day!
 

dafluff

Moderator
Moderator
Cager
Joined
Jul 13, 2016
Messages
3,216
the children was born from mix marriage in Indonesia before 2006 were not allowed to have two passports right? it is this the origin of the problem?
I need to have clear that please!
The problem is: Your child was born before 1 August 2006, and you did not apply for dual-citizenship until 1 August 2010.
 

jstar

Mr. 10,000
Joined
Jul 31, 2016
Messages
4,140
Yes, and since (now) they know your daughter also has a foreign passport, they state that she must be foreigner.

Assuming your daughter wants to become a WNA, that sucks. You 'lose' four additional years of thinking about it and it complicates matters and will cost you money (KITAS/KITAP/School/administration).

Assuming your daughter wants to become a WNI, that's a small disaster.
 

Saudade

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
152
I have been looking on all my daughter passports and I was wrong, and I had totally forgot about it!
Se was born in January 2005, In September 2005 we made her Indonesian passport and after that we went a few times to Spain on holidays on VISA TO SCHENGEN, always on a Visa stamp on her Indonesian passport (three times in different years).
It was in July 2010 when I have not idea why, we made her first Spanish passport (maybe thinking to avoid to apply for the Visa stamps on the future when we travel to Europe, no idea).
The Spanish Embassy, they knew we had an Indonesian passport for her, because we had already apply for the Visa stamp a few times before we try to make the Spanish passport, they should't inform us that it was not allow to have the two passports at that time? so we would have continue travelling to Spain applying for the Visa stamps on the Indonesian passport and never this it would happen.
I have been hours trying to read as much I can, to try to understand things.
I wonder if the fact her father is the WNI is important in this case or no, I found this on the website of the Indonesian Embassy in Ottawa

Replacement of Indonesian Passport for a child born before August 1, 2006
  1. According to Law No. 62/1958, Article 4, c, in the case of an Indonesian citizen father and a foreign citizen mother, a child since birth has obtained Indonesian citizenship, by record he/she does not have a Limited Dual Citizenship, the passport can be renewed without enclosing a Decree from the Minister of Law and Human Rights on Indonesian Citizenship.
Do you think this is related to my daughter situation? I sometimes cannot think clearly, sorry!
My daughter had already a Indonesian passport before 2006, and only one, is that relevant?
Terimakasi
 

sumyunggai

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
322
I suggest you speak to the Indonesian Embassy in Ottawa and ask them to clarify as the language is not clear.

Unfortunately most Indonesian laws are ambiguous, poorly drafted and lacking in clarity.

Anyway, no it is obviously not the Spanish embassy's job to check if you have the right kind of Indonesian nationality.

Like I said, it is my experience that you can in fact retain Indonesian citizenship in the scenario where you have obtained a second passport and get caught, but they will expect you to renounce your foreign citizenship.

But the problem is that this will depend from place to place - for example, in Canada they might be happy to renew the passport, but that means almost nothing for a child in Indonesia, because it's subject to the whim of the immigration there.

I think Law 62/1958 is not relevant since the child was an Indonesian citizen as of 1st August 2006, so the only question is whether obtaining the Spanish citizenship in July 2010 resulted in that being lost. And that can only be determined by reference to Law 12/2006, since 62/1958 is only relevant in determining if a child was Indonesian at the time that law was past.

I am not sure that the child has not lost Indonesian citizenship by taking on Spanish citizenship, but the only way to resolve this is to proceed to Indonesian immigration on the basis that you want to renounce the Spanish citizenship and remain as an Indonesian national only. Or otherwise lose Indonesian nationality, leave the country and use KITAS & Spanish passport.

I expect you will need a declaration from the Spanish Embassy that your child has renounced Spanish nationality.
 

Saudade

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2016
Messages
152
Thanks again for all your help, there is still something I have not clear and I think is very important!
My daughter was born in 2005 from a Indonesian father, and we made right away her Indonesian passport, so in 2006 when this law came, my daughter was already Indonesian citizen with only a Indonesian passport, which in fact she used already to go overseas before the decree in 2006 with visa stamps on it.
When the decree came out, it was compulsory all the children from mix parents made the declaration? (Indonesian fathers as well, I mention this, because usually if I am not wrong, is different if the father is the one from overseas, because it seems like the child follow the nationality of the father, in our case the father is Indonesian), so was compulsory or not, to make the declaration even to continue with the Indonesian citizenship ONLY?
I though that law (2006), was made to help mix marriage children to allow them to have limited dual citizenship but what about the families who didn't want the limited dual citizenship and only want to remain Indonesian? If I am not wrong, I think this it was the case of Atlantis son's, he was travelling to France with the visa stamp on his Indonesian passport like my daughter.
I need to make clear this because it is very important for us, because the director of the immigration office what he is asking us is for this declaration letter, I need to forget now we made a European passport later for her, that can be another issue, and I need to focus first on the declaration letter he is asking us, because we have my daughter passports from 2005 with all the Visa stamps on the passport to travel to Europe, which can proof we didn't want the limited dual citizenship, we didn't need it, so we didn't apply for that, because she was already only Indonesian citizenship with a Indonesian passport and that was good enough for us.
What do you think?
I keep reading and reading the law and the decree 2006 and still don't get it when says it was compulsory to make the declaration letter for all the mix marriage having mix children born before 2006, I don't see where say it was a must, in my opinion it was an offer for allow the mix parents who want their children have limited dual citizenship, like the ones born from a foreigner father and Indonesian mother who already had only a foreigner passport from their father, so they could apply for the Indonesian passport as well or for families who want their children having both passports, the one from their father and the one from their mother.
My child was already Indonesian citizenship and had already Indonesian passport before the law and decree 2006, if the new law in 2006 was compulsory for all of the children, even the ones who already had only Indonesian citizenship and Indonesian passport, after the declaration apply dead line finish in August 2010, they should have CANCELED my daughter Indonesian passport and let us know, because according to that in Indonesia my child was not a Indonesian citizen anymore and after August 2010 she was STATELESS, but instead they allowed us to keep the Indonesian passport and we were able to renew the Indonesian passport in 2010 and 2015 and travel with it all these years.
My daughter has been always leaving and entering Indonesia with the Indonesia passport.
Ok, in summary, please could you tell me if the declaration letter stated on the decree law 2006, was something compulsory to make for all of us as parents of mix children or only for the parents who want to apply for the limited dual citizenship? and not for the ones who wants to remain only Indonesian citizenship.
Terimakasi banyak
Have a beautiful day
I am going to have another paracetamol!
 
Last edited:

dafluff

Moderator
Moderator
Cager
Joined
Jul 13, 2016
Messages
3,216
The law says that dual-national children need to register. Children that only have single nationality do not.

If your child only has an Indonesian passport, she would be an Indonesian citizen like any other. The problem is that she has another passport, and immigration finds out.

So let's treat child's case like an single-national WNI, who at a later date obtained a foreign nationality. The law says you can lose Indonesian citizenship if you voluntarily obtain a foreign nationality. You could maybe ask immigration (since your child obviously did not participate in obtaining her second nationality), if at this point it is possible to keep Indonesian nationality if she renounces the foreign one.

On the other hand, is this really a desirable outcome? If it were me, I would much prefer them to be on a family KITAS, which is fairly easy to handle, and maintain a powerful EU passport.
 

snpark

Well-Known Member
Cager
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
1,546
Spanish passport much better than Indonesian. Sorry. And ignore what the Canadian consulate says. Ditch the Indo one. And probably much easier to go to Spanish embassy here and get a new passport than to argue with Indo authorities. Worse case just leave if possible and get a new Spanish passport in SG and come in on VOA and get new kitas. Much much easier in the long run. Indo Immi are just going to be a headache for you.
 

jukung11

Well-Known Member
Cager
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
262
I wanted to reference specific passages for anyone else reading this:

You are correct. In 2005, from birth your daughter she had citizenship based on an Indonesian Father and Foreign Mother.

Under UU Tahun 62 1958 Pasal 1 b.
orang yang pada waktu lahirnya mempunyai hubungan hukum kekeluargaan dengan ayahnya, seorang warga-negara Republik Indonesia, dengan pengertian bahwa kewarga-negaraan Republik Indonesia tersebut dimulai sejak adanya hubungan hukum kekeluargaan termaksud, dan bahwa hubungan hukum kekeluargaan ini diadakan sebelum orang itu berumur 18 tahun atau sebelum ia kawin pada usia di bawah 18 tahun;

Citizenship is lost upon acquisition of a foreign passport.

UU No. 62 Tahun 1958 Pasal 17
Kewarga-negaraan Republik Indonesia hilang karena:
J. mempunyai paspor atau surat yang bersifat paspor dari negara asing atas namanya yang masih berlaku;

UU No. 12 Tahun 2006 Pasal 23
Warga Negara Indonesia kehilangan kewarganegaraannya jika yang bersangkutan:

h. mempunyai paspor atau surat yang bersifat paspor dari negara asing atau surat yang dapat diartikan sebagai tanda kewarganegaraan yang masih berlaku dari negara lain atas namanya; atau



In my reading, under both citizenship laws, your daughter's citizenship was lost as soon as you obtained the Spanish passport. It is a triggering event under both laws. The 2006 law simply allowed dual passports as long as the Indonesian was registered as a dual citizen.

The clause for a "voluntary" swearing of the foreign citizenship is a separate type of loss of citizenship:
UU No. 12 Tahun 2006 Pasal 23
a. memperoleh kewarganegaraan lain atas kemauannya sendiri;

The law does not specify the loss of citizenship has to be voluntary, if a parent obtains a foreign passport.

they should have CANCELED my daughter Indonesian passport and let us know, because according to that in Indonesia my child was not a Indonesian citizen anymore and after August 2010 she was STATELESS,
She was not stateless. She was a Spanish citizen as of July 2010.

It was in July 2010 when I have not idea why, we made her first Spanish passport
If there was a way for the Indonesian ministry to know you had gotten a foreign passport in July 2010, you would have had these problems 10 years ago. They found out now. You have the problem now.

If they are talking about deportation, I would be more concerned with penalties or blacklisting. As long as that is not the case, then let us look at some of the practicality of this. She was going to have to choose citizenship in 6 years. (2005 +18 + 3 years grace period for enforcement).

She can legally be granted a ITAS because she is a former Indonesian citizen and her parent is an Indonesian citizen.

UU 12 tahun 2006 Pasal 9, b. pada waktu mengajukan permohonan sudah bertempat tinggal di wilayah negara Republik Indonesia paling singkat 5 (lima ) tahun berturut-turut atau paling singkat 10 (sepuluh) tahun tidak berturut-turut;

As long as she has a ITAS for 5 years, she can reapply for citizenship. It will be the same result.
The pain in the butt will be paying for the WNA tuition rates if she plans to attend college in Indonesia. Also if she plans to be employed in Indonesia.
 

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Follow Us

Latest Expat Indo Articles

Latest Activity

New posts Latest threads

Latest Tweets by Expat Indo

Online Now

Newest Members

Forum Statistics

Threads
4,223
Messages
64,025
Members
1,682
Latest member
Martin41
Top Bottom