How Indonesian resort island Bali became a refuge for Ukrainians and Russians

You said you prefer a merit system, but I’m sorry to say that I don’t believe you, at least I don’t believe you understand what a merit system in immigration means.
A true merit system means each immigrant is admitted based on what he/she does or has.
Conservatives dislike birthright citizenship supposedly because the babies haven’t earned it. Well, if you want to be consistent, then the same standard should be applied to everybody. This means being an immediate relative to an American citizen doesn’t give you any immigration privilege, you have to show that you qualify based on skill, experience, wealth, etc.
I'll try to be brief for Ruserious et al's sake 🙂. Ideally the mods can move this discussion to its own thread.
I'm well aware of what a merit system in immigration means. A 'merit system with a strong component of humanitarianism' to me means we accept immigrants based on how their capabilities fit our needs, and genuine refugees, and immediate family members if there's no great risk that they'll go on the dole.
Today parents, children, and spouse of American citizens automatically qualifies for a green card, and eventually citizenship. These people get immigration benefits not because they have particular skill or wealth, they get it simply because they’re related to a citizen. That’s a textbook definition of nepotism.
You may want to double check that. It's not automatic. I know a guy whose wife couldn't join him because of his finances. Luckily a local synagogue helped out, even though he wasn't a member. Anyway it's fine and normal that immediate family members can immigrate if they follow the process.
You claimed that people in Singapore, NZ, and Australia “picks and chooses who gets to enter”, implying that Americans don’t have the same freedom. That’s patently wrong, because America’s government is (still) freely elected, so America’s constitution and immigration law reflect the picks and choices of Americans.
You're really twisting words there. I pointed out that three notable immigrant countries do not grant birthright citizenship, in response to an assertion that jus sanguinis is an inherent characteristic of immigrant countries. I also posted earlier that our immigration laws need improvement.
Birthright citizenship is not forced upon you by King George at gunpoint, you chose it on your own accord.
George III is dead. Vive le roi.
Yes we can change it. My point is that we should change it
By the way, these countries prevent chain migration by imposing strict criteria on parents of citizens wanting to immigrate. America can do the same by removing the automatic sponsorship eligibility for parents, so the babies can’t ‘anchor’ anymore when they turn 21. No constitutional amendment necessary.
There's that, and we can also remove jus soli citizenship.
 
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I'll try to be brief for Ruserious et al's sake 🙂. Ideally the mods can move this discussion to its own thread.
I'm well aware of what a merit system in immigration means. A 'merit system with a strong component of humanitarianism' to me means we accept immigrants based on how their capabilities fit our needs, and genuine refugees, and immediate family members if there's no great risk that they'll go on the dole.
You’re criticizing BLM for playing around with their word definition, and now you’re doing it yourself.

Accepting family members doesn’t qualify as ‘humanitarian reason’, not if they’re able parents. These countries you wish to emulate don’t consider parents worthy of immigrant visa for humanitarian reasons.

You may want to double check that. It's not automatic. I know a guy whose wife couldn't join him because of his finances. Luckily a local synagogue helped out, even though he wasn't a member.
I don’t need to double check. The financial requirement applies to every immigrant, only refugees are exempted. It’s not a big deal, you only need to show that you earn above the federal poverty standard, which is a little above federal minimum wage. A family of 2 (husband and wife) must show income at 125% of federal poverty standard, which is $24,860 in 2023. That’s about $12/hour wage. Even McDonald’s pays more than that today, the local Aldi in Indiana starts at $14/ hour.

The same with requirements related to health, criminal record, membership in terroristic organizations, etc. You can be a spouse to a citizen and still be denied entry if you have committed certain crimes, or currently suffering a communicable disease, etc. It’s called “ground of inadmissibility” that applies to every immigrant visa. The gov’t wants to make sure that you’re at least not poor, not sick, and not a criminal. That’s the bare minimum.

Anyway it's fine and normal that immediate family members can immigrate if they follow the process.
According to your personal standard it is. Foreign parents of Singaporeans, Australians and New Zealanders can’t just immigrate by applying for it, the requirements go much more beyond the basics. If you want to go by their standard, you gotta take the bad with the good.

You're really twisting words there. I pointed out that three notable immigrant countries do not grant birthright citizenship, in response to an assertion that jus sanguinis is an inherent characteristic of immigrant countries. I also posted earlier that our immigration laws need improvement.
And I have addressed that, it’s ridiculous that you cherry pick three countries on the other side of the world with 35 million people combined, while ignoring 30+ neighboring countries in the Americas with birthright citizenship, representing more than 1 billion people.

Birthright citizenship is the standard over here, for centuries, not an exception like the recent anti immigrant Trumpers like to say.

George III is dead. Vive le roi.
Yes we can change it. My point is that we should change it

There's that, and we can also remove jus soli citizenship.
You are entitled to your opinion, even if you think immigration should maintain the current racial composition. Thankfully that opinion doesn’t carry legal weight.

Just to summarize all this long winded thread: You’re against anchor babies. When I said we can remove their ability to anchor easily, you don’t want that because you still want parents of citizens to be able to immigrate. That means your problem is with babies of foreign parents, supposedly because the babies haven’t earned their citizenship. However, you don’t mind immediate relatives immigrating even though they don’t earn their citizenship either.

I go by the constitution, you go by something else.
 
You’re criticizing BLM for playing around with their word definition, and now you’re doing it yourself.

Accepting family members doesn’t qualify as ‘humanitarian reason’, not if they’re able parents. These countries you wish to emulate don’t consider parents worthy of immigrant visa for humanitarian reasons.
Hoo boy. Briefly (I hope, and I'm sure others do too):
Yes accepting family members is humanitarian in nature. That doesn't mean they have to be refugees.
I did not mention or suggest emulating any other countries.
I don’t need to double check. The financial requirement applies to every immigrant, only refugees are exempted. It’s not a big deal, you only need to show that you earn above the federal poverty standard, which is a little above federal minimum wage. A family of 2 (husband and wife) must show income at 125% of federal poverty standard, which is $24,860 in 2023. That’s about $12/hour wage. Even McDonald’s pays more than that today, the local Aldi in Indiana starts at $14/ hour.

The same with requirements related to health, criminal record, membership in terroristic organizations, etc. You can be a spouse to a citizen and still be denied entry if you have committed certain crimes, or currently suffering a communicable disease, etc. It’s called “ground of inadmissibility” that applies to every immigrant visa. The gov’t wants to make sure that you’re at least not poor, not sick, and not a criminal. That’s the bare minimum.
The guy I know was at the time a parts clerk at an airline based in NoVa. He made above minimum wage but wasn't taking it in. Regardless, my point is that green cards are not automatic for spouses etc. as someone had averred.
According to your personal standard it is. Foreign parents of Singaporeans, Australians and New Zealanders can’t just immigrate by applying for it, the requirements go much more beyond the basics. If you want to go by their standard, you gotta take the bad with the good.
Yes, exactly my personal standard. This is after all a message board. Singers, Oz, and NZ aren't pertinent on this point.
And I have addressed that, it’s ridiculous that you cherry pick three countries on the other side of the world with 35 million people combined, while ignoring 30+ neighboring countries in the Americas with birthright citizenship, representing more than 1 billion people.

Birthright citizenship is the standard over here, for centuries, not an exception like the recent anti immigrant Trumpers like to say.
Those are the three immigrant countries I am most familiar with, after the US.
You are entitled to your opinion, even if you think immigration should maintain the current racial composition. Thankfully that opinion doesn’t carry legal weight.
Where did I mention that the US should maintain the current racial, or national, ratios? I said we need to improve our immigration laws, and I don't mean just by removing jus solis citizenship.
Just to summarize all this long winded thread: You’re against anchor babies.
Yes
When I said we can remove their ability to anchor easily, you don’t want that because you still want parents of citizens to be able to immigrate.
I think you know that's not what I wrote.
That means your problem is with babies of foreign parents, supposedly because the babies haven’t earned their citizenship.
Babies of foreign parents who do not have legal residency.
However, you don't mind immediate relatives immigrating even though they don’t earn their citizenship either.
Pretty much.
I go by the constitution, you go by something else.
I go by the Constitution, but I think it should be amended to remove pure birthright citizenship. See we agree about going by the Constitution.
 
Those who like to see Koster go due to his comment on hosting FIFA U-20 World Cup, you will be glad to hear this news. He has been replaced by another person as his term has ended.

 
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The Bali Development program seems to be oriented towards "quality" tourists with cash to splash in resorts and other places benefiting the already wealthy while banning motor bike hiring and low cost accommodation it is hoped will keep away back packers and the less than wealthy even though millions of dollars find their way to small. local entrepreneurs . One might have thought a governor has a duty to benefit all the Balinese rather than aiming to make the already rich richer. I wonder what the disposition is of the incoming Governor.
 
The Bali Development program seems to be oriented towards "quality" tourists with cash to splash in resorts and other places benefiting the already wealthy while banning motor bike hiring and low cost accommodation it is hoped will keep away back packers and the less than wealthy even though millions of dollars find their way to small. local entrepreneurs . One might have thought a governor has a duty to benefit all the Balinese rather than aiming to make the already rich richer. I wonder what the disposition is of the incoming Governor.
Very good point! As you said what about all the local accommodations that bring in some income for the thousands of locals? Only a few can afford these luxury hotels. These officials, you can see the dollar signs in their eyes!
 
These officials, you can see the dollar signs in their eyes!

The stench of corruption permeates the region.

"It could be worse, it could be Malaysia," they say as they hand over a "gift" to the local sambo in order to get their required document processed.
 
In Kenya it is called Harambee. "Harambee is a Kenyan tradition of community self-help events, e.g. fundraising or development activities. The word means "all pull together" in Swahili, and is the official motto of Kenya, appearing on its coat of arms." Another term is "soda" meaning buy me a soda.
 
The Bali Development program seems to be oriented towards "quality" tourists with cash to splash in resorts and other places benefiting the already wealthy while banning motor bike hiring and low cost accommodation it is hoped will keep away back packers and the less than wealthy even though millions of dollars find their way to small. local entrepreneurs . One might have thought a governor has a duty to benefit all the Balinese rather than aiming to make the already rich richer. I wonder what the disposition is of the incoming Governor.
In my personal opinion, the reason for that is, as usual, the 'big money lobby,' and an association representing them, requires members to pay membership fees based on the categories of hotels and restaurants.

They attempted this a few decades ago, failed, and moved back. Unfortunately, no one is held accountable; just the opposite, they might even be rewarded. Keep in mind that the impact may only be seen after a few years or even decades. By that time, they might have retired or even been promoted.

When people want to learn, even in the most expensive cities, the famous tourist cities in the world, they still cater to the needs of every budget, including hostels and B&Bs, street foods, etc. Low-budget accommodations and 'warungs,' bike rentals also provide employment and pay taxes. In other cities, they even conduct a trial using electric scooters and will evaluate the impact.

There will always be "invisible hands" the unseen forces that impact the free market and correct the balance between the two, the budget and the more exclusive tourism. In theory, theorized by a well-known liberal economist, Adam Smith; Consumers basing decisions (and providers in return adapting their needs) on self-interest creates a positive outcome for the economy.
 
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A documentary about Digital Nomads in Bali from CNBC. This was published on December 26, 2022, so it's a little bit out of date. Also, the Golden Visa has not been issued.
 
So basically they all only stay there cos its cheap for bule and their only "work" is to screw the locals by reselling Balinese products services or land to other bule for bule prices
 
A documentary about Digital Nomads in Bali from CNBC. This was published on December 26, 2022, so it's a little bit out of date. Also, the Golden Visa has not been issued.
A bit confusing is that this documentary is about digital nomads and the visa programs of several countries, but comparing those to the second home program of Indonesia. That's comparing apples and pears. This documentary gives the impression that with a second home visa (required to have 130.000 us dollars) that one is allowed to work in Indonesia as a digital nomad.
 
So write something about Russians and Ukrainians in Bali. It's an interesting topic.
In the news in Holland, 19 september 2023

Hundreds of Ukrainians still flee to the Netherlands every week. A third of them are men of military age. This is evident from figures from the Ministry of Justice and Security. It raises the question among fellow countrymen what these men are doing here, while others are fighting at the front.

In Ukraine there are many known cases of men trying to avoid military service. They do this, for example, by bribing Ukrainian officials.

The adult Ukrainian men in Dutch shelters raise eyebrows in some places. “If everyone flees, we might as well surrender to Russia,” says one refugee woman.
 
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The treatment of (bogus?) refugees in Indonesia and Europe warrants comparison and contrast. The root cause of the problem lies in the abuse of the system, the abuse of human rights convention, activists including activist judges, opportunistic politicians. For opportunistic politicians, these people will be able to vote someday. Unexpectedly, when queried in front of the public podcast whether they'd be willing to accommodate any of these individuals in their homes or regularly include them in their special financial support, none of them have shown a willingness to agree. Is it against your human right for not getting benefit coming from the taxpayer's money, if you or member of your family have not contributed to it ?

For instance, consider how boat crossings in the Channel are handled in the UK. As soon as they land on UK soil, the individuals are escorted to three-star hotels (at least) with a full English breakfast, hotel lunch and dinner. In addition they also get monthly allowance and free healthcare, free education while never contribute to the system. Not to mention after certain years they could invite other members of their family, again using the human right accuses. The cost of housing them alone is £8m a day equate to £2.92b pa (or US$.3.57). If the money is used to fight hunger in Africa, how many children, people could be saved ?. Not to mention they can not pay a solicitor, so a solicitor will be appointed. All of that are paid will be paid by the UK taxpayer's.


According to the government’s own data there was a jump in contingency accommodation which is largely hotels, from 2,577 people people in March 2020 to 37,142 in September 2022.

Many of these people have been wandering on the mainland of Europe for years, crossing from another continent to a remote islands in Italy and Greece, eventually ending up in Calais, France, awaiting the right moment to cross the Channel to the UK using small boats. We must use common sense to assess their genuineness. EU rules stipulate that all genuine refugees must claim asylum in the first safe country they reach. Therefore, drawing a conclusion about their authenticity as asylum seekers becomes imperative.

Arguably, Russian and Ukrainian nationals in Bali fleeing their countries to avoid war and potential frontline service may have a more legitimate reason to seek refuge. Put yourself in their shoes.

Another story is that of Ali, a refugee from Afghanistan who has been in Indonesia for over 23 years since childhood.


How Indonesian government have treated these sort of people are appalling. It's worth noting that Indonesia lacks a benefit/social security system, so the Indonesian government and taxpayers have very little to lose.
 
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If the mighty West, led by the US hadn't stirred up shit in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya we would not have refugees from those regions....

The next big problem is the immigration from the Sub Sahel region, look at the population growth in Africa..... If they can not manage to give decent education and proper jobs to those people, it is inevitable that they will try to join Europe.
After all, everybody wants a better life.
Remember the European migration to America .....
 

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