Hello from a soon-to-be ex from the US

[flavus]

May I ask you why you consider naturalizing as US citizen? Is it just for easier traveling? Or is it civic obligations that you want to do (vote, become jury, police, military)?

As you mentioned earlier green card holder basically almost have the same rights as a citizen so why naturalize?

Of course.

It's a combination of both really.

Convenience:

• traveling (including for work, right now it's a pain for business travel to Schengen destinations)
• not having to worry about renewals. USCIS can be... inundated and move slowly

Civic duty:

• being able to vote. Part is self interest, even school boards are elected here and now we don't have a say
• jury duty -- to be honest most people actually avoid this. I don't mind though, but will likely be struck out during jury selection
• police and military are actually open to non citizens. You get naturalization faster after military duty. Some countries might frown on that though (I wasn't interested so never checked if Indonesia allows that)

How about you, how goes life in Sweden? Can residents vote in local elections?

If I were in the EU I might not bother naturalizing, or it will be a closer call, since the US and UK offer long term visitor visas so traveling on Indo passport is less annoying

 

[SamR]

Just as an alternative POV, I think when it comes to whether or not to remain a WNI or become a WNA, some thought should be given on things like how big are the odds that you’ll be back in Indonesia or what are the administrative and legal consequences of your obtaining another citizenship. I think conversations about whether to obtain another citizenship places more weight on the potential gains rather than the potential losses.

I say this because I became an “Ex” because 1) I have a parent who is adamant that I should not end up in Indonesia and went against my gut instinct that I will end up back here to reside.

2) There was little to no information that we have now about the consequences of not being a WNI that I could offer up as an argument against the said parent.

Can’t change the past and have to work with the cards that’s been dealt to me. But there’s still a bitter taste in my mouth that for all intents and purposes, I decided on the WNA road without the proper information and at someone else’s whim.

 

[flavus]

I say this because I became an “Ex” because 1) I have a parent who is adamant that I should not end up in Indonesia and went against my gut instinct that I will end up back here to reside.

I'm sorry you had to go through that!

In our case, it's been a well deliberated choice - both my wife and I intended to emigrate, and I have spent more time living outside of Indonesia than in anyway.

We both have endured parental coercion too - when it comes to college choices - and wanted to give our kids more choice; that's another reason we find life here more compelling.

 

[123tompel]

How about you, how goes life in Sweden? Can residents vote in local elections?

If I were in the EU I might not bother naturalizing, or it will be a closer call, since the US and UK offer long term visitor visas so traveling on Indo passport is less annoying

Residents can vote in both municipal and regional / province election. Both of them are actually quite important for daily life since they determine school, roads, hospitals, city parks, etc. However when we did get a warning from KBRI that voting in another country election is illegal can can result in losing citizenship. So we did not vote. Check https://kotabumi.imigrasi.go.id/berita/uu-12-2006-kewarganegaraan

Pasal 23:g

Well as I said... I can have clear benefits to be able to work freely in any other EU country. So being citizen of Sweden means being "citizen" of Norway, Germany, Spain, France...etc. Same cannot be said for permanent resident holder.

My situation is that I have just extended my indonesian passport, it will be valid to 2032.. new policy 10 years validity. I wonder what happen if I acquire swedish passport and travel to Indonesia. Would it be OK to just leave indo passport at home and travel using swedish passport? Or would I have to wait until indo passport expire?

 

[flavus]

However when we did get a warning from KBRI that voting in another country election is illegal can can result in losing citizenship

Bummer, even at local levels!

Here in the US it's interesting. Federal and state level elections are obviously out. Most states explicitly ban non citizens voting in local elections too, but some don't, and it's a gray area - eg I think SF allows it, NYC tries and got struck down by the NY Supreme Court.

Between potentially getting in trouble when naturalizing, and as it turns out, Indonesia also frowning on this, I wouldn't either given the chance

 

[flavus]

I wonder what happen if I acquire swedish passport and travel to Indonesia. Would it be OK to just leave indo passport at home and travel using swedish passport? Or would I have to wait until indo passport expire?

AIUI to leave and enter Sweden you must use your Swedish passport. To leave and enter Indonesia you must use your Indonesian passport too - but that point is probably moot since legally you should hand in your passport to the consulate once you naturalize

Between countries that allow multiple nationalities, just use the passport of the country in question, otherwise pick the passport with the better access. I have colleagues who are dual US/EU country nationals or even triple US/UK/Canadian. Sometimes border agents get amused when they see all the passports

 

[SamR]

even triple US/UK/Canadian

There's triple citizens? I always thought double was the maximum.

My experience regarding becoming the citizen of another country, not reporting straightaway and using it to travel including to Indonesia thing: once I became an Australian national I used my new passport to travel including to Indonesia even though I was still in possession of my Indonesian one so there was a period where I unofficially had 2 passports. I only reported to the consulate 2.5 years after I became an Australian national. Me applying for a Kitas also doubled as my report to the consulate that I had become the citizen of another country and the day I collected my Vitas was the day I handed in my Indonesian passport.

I suppose I saw notifying the consulate and handing in the passport as something that I thought was going to happen eventually but only when it became necessary.

From my WNI days, renewing the Indonesian passport did not require any documents to show that I had not become a citizen of Australia. Mind you the last time I renewed my Indonesian passport prior to becoming an ex was 15 years ago. I would assume that in the intervening years with more and more Indonesians taking on foreign citizenships and ending up back in Indonesia (hell, I use to think I was the only one before finding this forum), things have become more strict.

 

[snpark]

My mate has Dutch Swiss nationality and a British passport. C'est possible je sense

I mean me myself I have 2 legal British passports both current in my name and valid 10years biometric etc.

So maybe can get 3 if you live in UK long time?

 

[jstar]

I had an American boss who was rather obsessed with safety, he was always afraid his plane would be hijacked and the guys would say “we’re gonna shoot all Americans, please show your passport”. (And that was even before 9/11.) So he was looking into getting another passport, and had nations as Malta and Domenica on his shortlist. It seemed very easy to get one from there.

 

[snpark]

Marshall Islands
Be like that Jewish Palestinian guy on YouTube that came here gobbing off about Bali being so white
He changed his passport

 

[flavus]

There's triple citizens? I always thought double was the maximum.

I don't think there's an upper limit beyond practicality! Either you can't have other nationalities, who cares how many extra you have.

The triple ones, I think, are probably more likely in case you inherit a nationality from a country that makes it easy for descendants to claim (eg UK citizenship is easy for those living in some commonwealth countries). Then you tack on US to it by emigrating.

 

[Samoerai]

Bummer, even at local levels!

Here in the US it's interesting. Federal and state level elections are obviously out. Most states explicitly ban non citizens voting in local elections too, but some don't, and it's a gray area - eg I think SF allows it, NYC tries and got struck down by the NY Supreme Court.

Between potentially getting in trouble when naturalizing, and as it turns out, Indonesia also frowning on this, I wouldn't either given the chance

Btw, @Flavius .. leaving Indonesia, did you had to pay some kind of tax at the airport? My wife did had to pay some kind of tax at the airport Soekaro-Hatta, when she left Indonesia to live with me in Holland, 15 years ago. I still wondering until now, what tax? It was not the regular airport tax. It was much more, like around 500 or 600 euro at that time.

 

[jstar]

That was a long time ago; Indonesian citizens/residents had to pay taxes (fiskal, after some time it became a fixed fee of 500K or so)*.

And later -like 10 years ago- the Departure Tax or Passenger Service Charge for everybody was canceled. Well, incorporated in the ticket prices, so you didn’t have to pay at the counter anymore.

*That was the way they got everybody to get the NPWP; with that you were exempt. But later it was completely abolished.

 

[Samoerai]

That was a long time ago; Indonesian citizens had to pay taxes (fiskal, 500K or so). And later -like 10 years ago- the Departure Tax or Passenger Service Charge for everybody was abolished. Well, incorporated in the ticket prices, so you didn’t have to pay at the counter anymore.

No, it was not the departure tax. On top of this, she had to pay like 10 or 12 juta .. I was there at the time, something to do with WNI leaving the country and have to pay tax. We just paid .. and continue to the gate.

 

[flavus]

No, it was not the departure tax. On top of this, she had to pay like 10 or 12 juta .. I was there at the time, something to do with WNI leaving the country and have to pay tax. We just paid .. and continue to the gate.

Um, I have no idea what that is, sorry. I'm familiar with the "fiscal tax" that @jstar mentioned from when I was younger. At some point they changed it so if you have an NPWP you can get an exemption (it's basically to capture tax revenue from those who work in the informal sector and don't pay tax), and as he said I think it got abolished fully later.

Apart from that and airport tax I have not had to pay anything else. My last time back was prepandemic though - with an Indonesian passport but no NPWP anymore, and didn't have to pay extra.

Now I'm curious what it is. I don't think fiscal tax was that much!

 

[flavus]

OK, so I think it is fiscal tax. The confusion is @jstar translated it as departure tax which is a bit ambiguous - fiscal tax only applies - applied, rather - to Indonesian citizens (not sure about KITAS/KITAP holders). I can't remember the amount, it's been too long

 

[Samoerai]

At some point they changed it so if you have an NPWP you can get an exemption (it's basically to capture tax revenue from those who work in the informal sector and don't pay tax), and as he said I think it got abolished fully later.

Yes, maybe this .. my wife had at that time a npwp .. but she was working in the informal sector ..

 

[Wisnu]

I don't know what tax or fee it was. I travel in and out of Indonesia quite often. Left Indonesia 19 years ago, but routinely pulang kampung 1-3 times per year, never paid any fees except fiscal and airport tax years back when were still applicable.

 

[Samoerai]

OK, so I think it is fiscal tax. The confusion is @jstar translated it as departure tax which is a bit ambiguous - fiscal tax only applies - applied, rather - to Indonesian citizens (not sure about KITAS/KITAP holders). I can't remember the amount, it's been too long

So, if a Kitas (without having a npwp number) holder leaves Indonesia and goes back to live in his home country, he will not have to pay fiskal tax at the airport? He will not be discovered leaving without paying fiskal tax?

 

[flavus]

So, if a Kitas (without having a npwp number) holder leaves Indonesia and goes back to live in his home country, he will not have to pay fiskal tax at the airport? He will not be discovered leaving without paying fiskal tax?

I don't know. But the fiscal tax has been abolished in recent years anyway, so it does not matter anymore. Now it's just the normal airport tax.

(Yes, I still wonder why it can't just be collected as part of the ticket purchase)