Excellent article about growing up as a mixed kid in Indonesia

I was not talking about "integrating successfully" in post #5. When they (e.g. those Bali kids) start their career in a Western country, that's when the discrimination starts. That's my own observation, but also my own experience. In my own country I started to talk about this long before Black Lives Matters caused a wave in Europe resulting in recognition of institutionalized racism. I have experienced many many many situations where I have been a victim of racism during my career. In The Netherlands white people look down on 'people with black hair', even if they don't know it consciously. Let me give you an example of the many many many situations I encountered.

A colleague of mine was moon lighting, meaning he was giving classes in the evening at a university. Now, I have a degree in Physics & Math and also a MBA degree. I love passing my knowledge to young people. So, I asked him if it was possible for me to also teach at this university. His answer was: "Huh, but you need to have a MBA-degree".

Another example. I was waiting for family to arrive at Schiphol airport. A stewardess came to me saying: "If I were you, I would gather all the trolleys and put them in the corner over there". She thought I was working as a cleaner at the airport.

One recent case I experienced (twice actually). I was promised a management position, when I passed a psychological research. I had to do all kinds of test, including intelligent tests. At this agency for psychological research they said that I was the first person to undergo so many tests. And I also was thinking: "Wow, this level of testing is brutal". But in the end I passed. Did I get the position? Of course not. They, meaning HR asked for the most difficult tests, just to make sure I would fail. They were surprised I passed and were left with an awkward situation.
The Dutch are well known racists, and appartheid practicioners, with their best examples in West Indies and in South Africa. They had the worst collonial system, and Indonesians were unfortunate to get them.

Suddenly they would want to forget all that.
 
The Dutch are well known racists, and appartheid practicioners, with their best examples in West Indies and in South Africa. They had the worst collonial system, and Indonesians were unfortunate to get them.

Suddenly they would want to forget all that.
Not sure Dutch are any worse than Belgian, Germans, Brits or French....

USA is a very racist country, till the mid 60's they had segregation white / black in certain states.

But it works both ways... I have lived plenty situations in Asia when my white face was "treated differently".... and I am not speaking about VIP treatment ....
 
Not sure Dutch are any worse than Belgian, Germans, Brits or French....

USA is a very racist country, till the mid 60's they had segregation white / black in certain states.

But it works both ways... I have lived plenty situations in Asia when my white face was "treated differently".... and I am not speaking about VIP treatment ....
Belgium could be a candidate, but Congo was a personal property of King Leopold.

Where British have been, left a good adminsitration system, where French have been, left their culture and assimilation. Portuguese and Spanish colonialism were cruel, but intermarried with local population a lot.

Dutch left nothing and basically installed pure appartheid system-educated Indonesians were even not allowed to use Dutch in official communication.
 
But it works both ways... I have lived plenty situations in Asia when my white face was "treated differently".... and I am not speaking about VIP treatment ....
So, back to those "Bali kids". I think they made the right decision to stay in Indonesia. Might help them to some positive discrimination, being indo and educated.
 
But it works both ways... I have lived plenty situations in Asia when my white face was "treated differently".... and I am not speaking about VIP treatment ....
I have flat out told that I was not welcome in a couple of places in Asia. Fine with me. I wouldn't enjoy being somewhere I wasn't wanted anyway.
 
I have flat out told that I was not welcome in a couple of places in Asia. Fine with me. I wouldn't enjoy being somewhere I wasn't wanted anyway.
As a white person growing up with a cultural legacy that emphasized the "superiority" of being white and European it is easy to shrug off the very few personal experiences of anti white hostility. For non white, Asian or non European descendants growing up in a world of legislated discrimination there is a consequent level of sensitivity of being reminded by "superior" whites that they are inferior. Not so easy to shrug off.
 
There's plenty of bars in Senopati where they don't let white male Europeans in.
 
There's plenty of bars in Senopati where they don't let white male Europeans in.
Same for Japanese bars in Bangkok (Thanya Rd). Same for some of the giant massage parlors in BKK.
Personnally many moons ago, was barred entring a disco in Bavaria "Kein Fremdling" ....no foreigner !
 
Never heard of this. Give us some names.

Not online. I'm not stupid

The ones owned by wealthy Chinese Indonesians who only want other wealthy Chinese Indonesians going in. Even wealthy white Caucasians not welcome. All the expensive whisky bars with private rooms and garage parking. I don't mean the karaoke places.

I mean the proper expensive clubs. Not members only. Just the ones where you drive below the building and there is a door. That's all. Very expensive and beautiful bars.
I've been to a few because I know the owners.

But you try getting in alone and no chance at all.
 
Not online. I'm not stupid

The ones owned by wealthy Chinese Indonesians who only want other wealthy Chinese Indonesians going in. Even wealthy white Caucasians not welcome. All the expensive whisky bars with private rooms and garage parking. I don't mean the karaoke places.

I mean the proper expensive clubs. Not members only. Just the ones where you drive below the building and there is a door. That's all. Very expensive and beautiful bars.
I've been to a few because I know the owners.

But you try getting in alone and no chance at all.
Is it a forbidden entry for any walk-in customer, or just for foreigners?
 
Is it a forbidden entry for any walk-in customer, or just for foreigners?


What do you mean? Nothing to do with reservation only. Or walk in guests.
I mean these places aren't there with big flashy signs etc.
I mean even the cocktail club or A/A or
Eleven bar don't advertise their address.
But people know where they are
A/A used to be very snooty and strict. But empty bar for 6 months soon they let anyone in without having to get the code and scan the book on the shelf next to the phone lol

Eleven still insists you use the red phone outside to call to get in

There's a bar in bali you enter through the fridge in the alfamart
But that's gimmicks. Speakeasy style

Or Oakroom where downstairs there's a private lounge but through there is another big private bar and nicer
Leon and Savoi were always strict if a white bule turned up "are you a member sir"

The owners of such establishments already have money and just open and reopen bars as a hobby and sideline and a way to "spend" money

Some of these guys have private whisky / wine / watch collections bigger than some hotel wine cellars. St regis has a malt room and a wine room and I said oh that reminds me of Bapak xXxXx house. And all the drawers of watches. The RM room. The PP room. The AP room

The car park of 4 seasons apartments is full of brand new unlicensed super and hyper cars all covered up with no reg plates

All alleged of course
 
Not sure Dutch are any worse than Belgian, Germans, Brits or French....

USA is a very racist country, till the mid 60's they had segregation white / black in certain states.

But it works both ways... I have lived plenty situations in Asia when my white face was "treated differently".... and I am not speaking about VIP treatment ....
This is true about the USA. I was raised there, born in Memphis Tn. In the 50's. The segregation was like you said rampant until the 60's. These were interesting times then. A lot changed very quickly and a lot did not! My Dad was from Poland,so he knew racism all to well growing in the poor part of NYC during the depression. He raised his kids to not judge a person by the color of their skin, but by their character, and actions! My friends were not so lucky, their parents hated the Blacks and called them the N word and screwed up their kids a lot.
My Mom was like Elvis and was given uppers and downers like candy from the Doctors then. She was not able to take care of the house or me very well, so my Dad hired a Black lady to take care of the home. She was kind and loving and treated me very well. She was all I really had as a motherly role model. So that effected my outlook on life forever. The 60's were a wild time, the anti-war movement, Hippies, the assassinations of John F Kennedy, Martin Luther King in Memphis. Robert Kennedy. desegregation. I loved growing up with the Black kids. We had a blast together. I guess that's why I like living in SE Asia so much. Different religions, cuisines, attitudes, I also know what it's like to be the White face in the crowd!
 
This is true about the USA. I was raised there, born in Memphis Tn. In the 50's. The segregation was like you said rampant until the 60's. These were interesting times then. A lot changed very quickly and a lot did not! My Dad was from Poland,so he knew racism all to well growing in the poor part of NYC during the depression. He raised his kids to not judge a person by the color of their skin, but by their character, and actions! My friends were not so lucky, their parents hated the Blacks and called them the N word and screwed up their kids a lot.
My Mom was like Elvis and was given uppers and downers like candy from the Doctors then. She was not able to take care of the house or me very well, so my Dad hired a Black lady to take care of the home. She was kind and loving and treated me very well. She was all I really had as a motherly role model. So that effected my outlook on life forever. The 60's were a wild time, the anti-war movement, Hippies, the assassinations of John F Kennedy, Martin Luther King in Memphis. Robert Kennedy. desegregation. I loved growing up with the Black kids. We had a blast together. I guess that's why I like living in SE Asia so much. Different religions, cuisines, attitudes, I also know what it's like to be the White face in the crowd!
It is important to remember that Indonesia has a history of racial discrimination that dates back many years. One can simply look back at how the Indonesian government treated its Chinese and, to some extent, Indian populations. This treatment starkly contrasts with the treatment of people of Arab descent.

Indonesian Chinese and Indians and their kids faced restrictions, such as being barred from attending state-funded universities, working as civil servants, or joining the armed forces. During any incidents of civil unrest, they often became scapegoats. The height of this discrimination occurred during the May 1998 riots, when their businesses were vandalized, looted, and some individuals were subjected to violence, including sexual assault.

It's essential to keep in mind that these Chinese and Indian communities were born in Indonesia, with some families having lived there for several generations. In neighbouring countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand which also have reasonable number of Chinese and Indian populations, the treatment of these communities has been notably different from that in Indonesia. In my personal view, Indonesia has had a history of being one of the most racially discriminatory countries in the world. Not to mention Indonesia used to be one of very few countries in this world which is constitutionally racist.
 
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Belgium could be a candidate, but Congo was a personal property of King Leopold.

Where British have been, left a good adminsitration system, where French have been, left their culture and assimilation. Portuguese and Spanish colonialism were cruel, but intermarried with local population a lot.

Dutch left nothing and basically installed pure appartheid system-educated Indonesians were even not allowed to use Dutch in official communication.
A clear illustration of this can be seen when we compare countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, and Hong Kong contrasted with East Timor, Suriname, Portuguese India, Mozambique, and Angola.

Additionally, it's worth noting that Canada, Australia, and New Zealand were once British colonies, and despite any personal preferences, it is a historical fact that the United States was also a British colony.
 
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It is important to remember that Indonesia has a history of racial discrimination that dates back many years. One can simply look back at how the Indonesian government treated its Chinese and, to some extent, Indian populations. This treatment starkly contrasts with the treatment of people of Arab descent.

Indonesian Chinese and Indians faced restrictions, such as being barred from attending state-funded universities, working as civil servants, or joining the armed forces. During any incidents of civil unrest, they often became scapegoats. The height of this discrimination occurred during the May 1998 riots, when their businesses were vandalized, looted, and some individuals were subjected to violence, including sexual assault.

It's essential to keep in mind that these Chinese and Indian communities were born in Indonesia, with some families having lived there for several generations. In neighbouring countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand which also have reasonable number of Chinese and Indian populations, the treatment of these communities has been notably different from that in Indonesia. In my personal view, Indonesia has had a history of being one of the most racially discriminatory countries in the world.
In 1969 after an election result in Malaysia that saw Chinese celebrating, riding around in vehicles and crowing about their win, this sparked a deadly race riot. The army did not allow Chinese to become soldiers and when the army was sent into troubled areas they used the opportunity to kill Chinese.

Official figures gave 143 of the dead as Chinese, 25 Malay, 13 Indian, and 15 others (undetermined), although unofficial figures suggested higher number of Chinese deaths. My own impression was that probably the number of Chinese killed may have been rather more. In Sitiawan which was then a small town I was told of one instance where a Chinese and a Malay, young boys, were walking together when soldiers came past. The Malay boy was ordered to keep going and the Chinese boy was shot. I met an Indian fellow living in Sabah where he decided to live after having been in Kuala Lumpur during the riots. He said he while driving in the city in KL turned a corner and found soldiers in a street littered with Chinese bodies. He was ordered to keep driving and drive over them or be shot.

Long held racial hatreds seem to simmer away until something sparks an explosion of violence. Sad but governments in Singapore and Malaysia have worked hard at trying to create some kind of social cohesion without prejudice.


 
It is important to remember that Indonesia has a history of racial discrimination that dates back many years. One can simply look back at how the Indonesian government treated its Chinese and, to some extent, Indian populations. This treatment starkly contrasts with the treatment of people of Arab descent.

Indonesian Chinese and Indians faced restrictions, such as being barred from attending state-funded universities, working as civil servants, or joining the armed forces. During any incidents of civil unrest, they often became scapegoats. The height of this discrimination occurred during the May 1998 riots, when their businesses were vandalized, looted, and some individuals were subjected to violence, including sexual assault.

It's essential to keep in mind that these Chinese and Indian communities were born in Indonesia, with some families having lived there for several generations. In neighbouring countries like Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand which also have reasonable number of Chinese and Indian populations, the treatment of these communities has been notably different from that in Indonesia. In my personal view, Indonesia has had a history of being one of the most racially discriminatory countries in the world.
I remember those times here. Many people lost everything and had to flee for their lives. This is what happens when life is hard, people tend to look for a scapegoat to blame for all the hardships, instead of looking at themselves or their own authorities. From what I've seen having gone to India several times and seeing businesses here run by Chinese bosses. These people are hard working and very organized and take care of their families first. But I must say some of the businesses I went too were not being very nice to their Bali staff. I observed the staff afraid to upset the boss in fear of being fired. I wanted to buy some fabric to try for my production. I only wanted a few meters of cloth to make samples and was told I had to buy an entire roll which was far too much. So I left and sought out stores more reasonable.
So if this was my encounter maybe the locals had similar experiences too, with these foreign merchants and developed an attitude against them. This is not India or China so you have to be more in tune with the Indonesian peoples attitude and lifestyle if you want to make commerce here.
I have seen similar situations in America where there were Chinese shops that only hired their family and grew and grew their businesses still only hiring theIr family, that got very wealthy and opened many stores without sharing the wealth with the local communities, so I can understand why people get upset.
 
I have seen similar situations in America where there were Chinese shops that only hired their family and grew and grew their businesses still only hiring theIr family, that got very wealthy and opened many stores without sharing the wealth with the local communities, so I can understand why people get upset.
Sorry, but I am calling bullsh*t on this part. When a business grows, it most certainly benefits the community regardless of who the business employs. The local tax base expands - those taxes pay for programs that benefit the entire community: better schools, roads, police, fire departments, and the list goes on. Furthermore, a growing business must purchase more and more inventory. The vendors that provide that inventory may or may not be Chinese-owned. In the case of restaurants, the bulk food suppliers in the US are almost certainly not Chinese-owned. It would make no sense to import flour, beef, pork, most vegetables, etc all the way from China when China itself is a net importer of these goods from the US!
 
Sorry, but I am calling bullsh*t on this part. When a business grows, it most certainly benefits the community regardless of who the business employs. The local tax base expands - those taxes pay for programs that benefit the entire community: better schools, roads, police, fire departments, and the list goes on. Furthermore, a growing business must purchase more and more inventory. The vendors that provide that inventory may or may not be Chinese-owned. In the case of restaurants, the bulk food suppliers in the US are almost certainly not Chinese-owned. It would make no sense to import flour, beef, pork, most vegetables, etc all the way from China when China itself is a net importer of these goods from the US!
While it may be true that any business growth benefits the community if the proprietors are dismissive or contemptuous of customers or clients based on a sense of the proprietors being somehow superior due to race or class then this leads to a storing up of discontent and even hatred that may come back in times of strife. Another example is that of Indians in Kenya where they tend to be socially isolated and even within their own community often assess people on the basis of their standing or caste. If that person is seen as beneath them, as is often the way Africans in Kenya are regarded, then they may be treated with contempt. If the person is of a higher caste or class then they may be greeted in an obsequious manner. At times when rioting has broken out it has been the Indian shops first ransacked and national attacked.

Ironically, in South Africa during the apartheid era Indians threw their lot in with the ANC to bring about change. It is notable that socially Indian communities in South Africa are not so isolated and mix much more readily socially.

As Chinese entrepreneurs have spread through so called Third World or underdeveloped countries, unfortunately business start ups are often exclusively Chinese with employment even to the extent of bringing in workers from China and setting up Chinese only shopping centres. While this may be understandable it develops serious resentment and hostility that takes just a spark to ignite violence and destruction.
1696995982355.png
 
While it may be true that any business growth benefits the community if the proprietors are dismissive or contemptuous of customers or clients based on a sense of the proprietors being somehow superior due to race or class then this leads to a storing up of discontent and even hatred that may come back in times of strife. Another example is that of Indians in Kenya where they tend to be socially isolated and even within their own community often assess people on the basis of their standing or caste. If that person is seen as beneath them, as is often the way Africans in Kenya are regarded, then they may be treated with contempt. If the person is of a higher caste or class then they may be greeted in an obsequious manner. At times when rioting has broken out it has been the Indian shops first ransacked and national attacked.

Ironically, in South Africa during the apartheid era Indians threw their lot in with the ANC to bring about change. It is notable that socially Indian communities in South Africa are not so isolated and mix much more readily socially.

As Chinese entrepreneurs have spread through so called Third World or underdeveloped countries, unfortunately business start ups are often exclusively Chinese with employment even to the extent of bringing in workers from China and setting up Chinese only shopping centres. While this may be understandable it develops serious resentment and hostility that takes just a spark to ignite violence and destruction.
View attachment 3417
This was why I specifically replied to the American context.
 

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