Digital Nomad, working for Aussie Company Remotely

[vocalneal]

Using an Indian ATM card is painful due to limitations and charges.

Charges are more or less than paying Indonesian income tax.

 

[centurion]

Basically yes. I am not 100% sure of Itas details but stay itas is not related to this job at all.

The work is done from a computer/internet and can be done anywhere as with many digital nomad and visitors. the employer and the 'customers' and activities are not in Indonesia.
Right now all work is officially done in Singapore with appropriate visa and tax but Sing. Is clamping down on residency days in country. So looking for alternate option.

I have already read several messages about this on the board it seems to be an area that does not have a ready solution. My initial question was about working for Australian entity while in Indonesia, but even that seems to be not normal. You would think Indonesian consultants would have similar issues if working for Australian entity online.

In my thinking i was hoping there was some kind of pathway involving consultancy agreement and maybe an Indo based HR agency but could not find anything so far.

If the spouse is Indonesian, the foreign spouse has the right to work online for an offshore company, online as well. That company should not have any activities in Indonesia.

The tax would be paid according to the foreign and Indonesian tax laws, and where applicable, a double taxation treaty would reduce the tax.

 

[jstar]

If the spouse is Indonesian, the foreign spouse has the right to work online for an offshore company, online as well

Can you substantiate that with a law reference? Not with a ‘gut feeling’ argument. personal opinion or some underpinning as “someone from Manpower* once said…”

*remember this?

F) Case: A foreigner in a mixed marriage with KITAS sponsored by wife. Working from home and having online businesses. Does not have an office and legal business such as PT or PMA. Because this foreigner is conducting work even though he only works online so this foreigner must have the IMTA. This foreigner also cannot sign work contracts in Indonesia on behalf of himself .

 

[Helpful Herbert]

However much you might want to pay tax in Indonesia it will be difficult if not impossible for you to do so, because you do not have an Inodnesian employer, and therefore cannot get a work permit, and therefore cannot officially earn a salary, therefore there is no salary to report.

 

[centurion]

Can you substantiate that with a law reference? Not with a ‘gut feeling’ argument. personal opinion or some underpinning as “someone from Manpower* once said…”

*remember this?

I have been for my own case, when I had a client from another country that included engagement for a period of time and that had to be delivered online, in the Ministry of Manpower in Gatot Subroto, in the Legal Department(that drafts their regulations btw), so I could get the interpretation of the regulations. I also had to be paid in Indonesia, and report the Indonesian tax as well, which later happened.

They said to me that their concern is working on the territory of Indonesia for Indonesian entities. Work delivered to other countries is not their concern and these employment/engagements are governed by the laws of these foreign countries, as long as the work is not related to Indonesia.

I encourage everybody who has dilemmas to check by himself, on a government level that is high enough to get his/her question understood and answered.

 

[Brian86]

Can you substantiate that with a law reference? Not with a ‘gut feeling’ argument. personal opinion or some underpinning as “someone from Manpower* once said…”

Ketenagakerjaan law does not regulate what individuals may do, only what companies may do. Permenaker No 8 2021 is the most recent, you will note it only contains instructions for what companies may and may not do, and all penalties (sanksi, denda) for violations are toward the company, the "Pemberi Kerja TKA". There are no instructions for individuals, no prohibitions for individuals, and no penalties for individuals. Furthermore, those on a spousal visa are not considered Tenaga Kerja Asing (TKA) anyway, as clearly described in Pasal 1 only people on working visas are TKA.

When someone arrives on a VOA and works illegally as an independent dive instructor, Ketenagakerjaan law has nothing to say about them; their actions are illegal because of Immigration law, and they will face the consequences of Immigration law, such as deportation and blacklisting. But what does Immigration law say about spouses, is working in violation of their visa? No, the preeminent Immigration law is UU 6 2011 which says quite clearly in Pasal 61 that they may work.

 

[jstar]

which says quite clearly in Pasal 61 that they may work.

Small but tremendously important correction; it says they may carry out work and/or business to meet the necessities of life and/or their families.

If you look at the final part of that sentence, ask yourself; suppose you’re married and your spouse has a well paid job, does she then still need you to work to meet the necessities (which you could interpret as food, water, electricity, rent), or to pay for her LV bag (which, I admit, according to Indonesian standards may also fall under necessities)?

As so often, it can be interpreted any way. You probably remember some (previous) forum members who were in a very bad financial shape because of physical and medical issues, some misfortune with the f-i-l and plain bad luck. Now you could argue these people definitely fell under this category.

And yes, we can all agree we’re not TKA but we are not Indonesian government officials, lawyers and -most importantly- judges who have the final say. And saying you can do something does not mean you’re not supposed to have an official approval. So as long as there has been no case in court, it’s always walking on eggshells. And everybody can make her/his own decision if the risk perceived is acceptable.

I’ll leave it at this because we’re having this discussion for more than a decade.

 

[snpark]

working online like for a blog etc is not really the same as being here working for your overseas company if that makes sense

You are not working for yourself
You are here working for an overseas based company that has no base or office here
So actually "working" not just blogging. As in full time permanent employment being paid a salary but you are based here

 

[centurion]

The OP was about working for an offshore company from Indonesia, on a spouse-sponsored ITAS, which does not contravene the existing regulations, as the spouse has the right to work and conduct business, to support his family (btw in case he is male, it is his legal obligation, according to the Marriage Law; wife's obligation is to run the household, same law).

 

[Brian86]

And yes, we can all agree we’re not TKA but we are not Indonesian government officials, lawyers and -most importantly- judges who have the final say. And saying you can do something does not mean you’re not supposed to have an official approval. So as long as there has been no case in court, it’s always walking on eggshells. And everybody can make her/his own decision if the risk perceived is acceptable.

Yes, I agree that the practical side of this issue is more complicated as these laws are sometimes not well understood by officials. You asked for a "law reference" and that was all I was addressing. I have observed that many people are familiar with the Pasal 61 reference to working, but believe that there is a Ketenagakerjaan law which contradicts the Immigration law. As I point out above, this does not appear to be the case.

 

[Samoerai]

I’ll leave it at this because we’re having this discussion for more than a decade.

Wow, lama banget .. maybe someone with knowledge on this topic could write an article. Because questions from newbies will keep coming. So, one can direct this person to that article. Just thinking out loud.

 

[fastpitch17]

Wow, lama banget .. maybe someone with knowledge on this topic could write an article. Because questions from newbies will keep coming. So, one can direct this person to that article. Just thinking out loud.

There is no one with factual knowledge on this matter. It has been discussed for the past 8 years with both yes and no having good arguments. One thing I am pretty sure of is if you go into a manpower office and ask, you will get a different answer in each one visited. Normal government workings.

One thing I am sure of, never listen to anyone who says Immigration says you can work. Immigration has nothing to do with someone working except if they are reported to them as working illegally or found to have the wrong visa. Manpower is the one and only Government office that deals with the ideas of one being able to work or not. It is they who set the requirements and laws associated with anyone working.

 

[Helpful Herbert]

It is a quantum law. You 'can work ' and 'cannot work' at the same time.

 

[Pak Tani]

Yes, I agree that the practical side of this issue is more complicated as these laws are sometimes not well understood by officials. You asked for a "law reference" and that was all I was addressing. I have observed that many people are familiar with the Pasal 61 reference to working, but believe that there is a Ketenagakerjaan law which contradicts the Immigration law. As I point out above, this does not appear to be the case.

Another practical issue would be when you do your tax return here in Indonesia while working semi-legally on your spouse sponsored visa.
Is it obligatory to do your tax return as a WNA and if so, what is the best thing to do when you are generating income without an IMTA?

 

[Helpful Herbert]

Another practical issue would be when you do your tax return here in Indonesia while working semi-legally on your spouse sponsored visa.
Is it obligatory to do your tax return as a WNA and if so, what is the best thing to do when you are generating income without an IMTA?

Well you certainly could not declare any income as employment income. Perhaps you could put it in the "other income" category if there is one? [assuming they would even give you a NPWP number if you don't have official employment]

 

[centurion]

Another practical issue would be when you do your tax return here in Indonesia while working semi-legally on your spouse sponsored visa.
Is it obligatory to do your tax return as a WNA and if so, what is the best thing to do when you are generating income without an IMTA?

There is no semi-legally (sound like semi-pregnant). If you make revenue, it should be declared.

 

[JohnTaylorLad]

I guess I'm in the same boat. I am an Indian national staying here on a spouse-sponsored visa and working remotely for a US-based company. I get my salary credited to my Indian bank account, and then from there I transfer half of it to my Indonesian bank account.

I have to pay tax in India, that I know, but do I have to pay tax here also as the money is coming from my Indian personal account to my Indonesian account? Yes, I am staying more than 183 days here, and the amount transferred to my Indonesian account is around $1200 per month.

Of course, I will consult with some tax professionals from Indonesia, but I would love to hear other people's views who have experienced the same thing.

Hi Manish .. the 183 days rule is pretty standard in most countries and i had to be involved in a similar analysis for staff working in the UK (visiting and working online to manage affairs in Spore but with no $$ coming into the UK)

So - just coz the 183 days rule makes you "tax resident" may not mean you are actually liable to tax.

Obviously if you received ZERO income - no tax. But what bout if your income was simple "delayed" until you were no longer Tax Resident?

Also - many countries have Double Tax Agreements which have some impact on your liability so worth checking this out.

We have actually had the situation of a staff that wanted to retain Singapore Tax Residence even after he had lost his EPass - simply coz it makes things a lot easier as he also travels a lot. But the IRAS also mentioned that if not "working / resident in Singapore" could not retain that status.

I think it may be worth your while to look at both the Indian/Singapore/UK rules to get an idea of whether there are any "international standards" esp if your Indonesian is not 100%.

One other issues is that even if you are Not Working / Earning a Tax Official may "deem you to be working" and having or handing out business cards or promoting yourself may not be such a good idea. All The Best John