Can't marry my fiancé for more than one year now

[MamangDudul]

This is really important, Magnum. If she wants to own property in Indonesia, you need a prenuptial agreement. If she stands to inherit property here she will need it. It is easier and potentially cheaper to get this before marriage if you guys can do it. Otherwise you will have to go through a process to get a retroactive prenuptial made, which in the case of my ex and I involved a judge and was not free or convenient.

About this thing, I was wondering about the legality of postnup agreements.

Iam already married for 11 years now and in the past no one told us about this prenup thing. Only years later we found out about it. We didn't really give it much attention since we were living in germany back then. A lot of things happened and we moved to Indonesia in 2019, the first thing we did was a postnup cause my wife wanted to buy a house and we wanted to make sure everything will be correct for the future. So far so good.
Still, several people (mostly notaris) told us the law for postnuptial agreements isn't really 100% approved of yet by the government.
Does anyone know something about it? It makes me wonder, especially in Indonesia, if in the end you really can rely on a postnup or not when shit hits the fan.

 

[centurion]

Postnup agreement is 100% legal and approved by the government, and moreover, it has to be registered in a Government institution (Catatan Sipil or KUA).

Case, when the marriage agreement will be invalid, is if you concluded it to avoid/fraud creditors or harm third parties, i.e. you put assets on wife's name to hide them after you defaulted on debt.

 

[MamangDudul]

Postnup agreement is 100% legal and approved by the government, and moreover, it has to be registered in a Government institution (Catatan Sipil or KUA).

Case, when the marriage agreement will be invalid, is if you concluded it to avoid/fraud creditors or harm third parties, i.e. you put assets on wife's name to hide them after you defaulted on debt.

Good to hear that.
Overall it is really important to do this kind of stuff.

 

[Magnum92]

We talked about the prenuptial agreement. It's no problem, we can do it. It's actually good and makes sense.

Because of the "The family wants money from me all the time" subject, I don't know what to say anymore.
So far no-one ever asked me for money. And to be honest, if I open my business there and buy utilities etc. there won't be that amount of money left to give everyone, as I also need to keep some money in case it does not work out and I have to come back here.

I know that you all think they will constantly ask me for money but I will simply not give much, and if I can't make a living there because of that I won't have another choice but flying back here. I already made this clear to my fiancé.

But here, also everyone grabs into my pocket!
I pay so much taxes because I'm single, the weather is bad and the healthcare here is also not good anymore. Recently I went to the dentist and they did not even give me a filling unless I would have paid 200€, and this after I paid 3000€ health insurance for a whole year and I did not even once went to a doctor for the last 12 months.

I know, you think I have no clue how it works in Indonesia with the families etc and maybe you are right, but this is not my concern now.
Fact is: I want to marry this woman and we want to live in Indonesia, so I cannot hide from these problems you pointed out anyways.

We don't want live here for many reasons:

• Not the most welcoming attitude towards Islam
• If we have a mixed kid, it will get bullied and discriminated
• We will not easily find an apartment because when they see her wearing hijab they will reject us

And besides, I have been living here now my whole life. It's enough. I want to live somewhere else now and I feel ready for it. No matter where I go, I will always face problems. Also here life is not easy and many people struggle to get by.

 

[dafluff]

Back to the original topic: Indonesia effective today has reopened all visa applications, so you should be able to have your fiancee sponsor you on a Sosial Budaya visa (Ijin Kunjungan).

Have her apply via https://visa-online.imigrasi.go.id/

The process is online, they will e-mail you an eVisa upon approval, then you can travel to Indonesia. No need to visit an Indonesian embassy abroad.

Visa-free and visa on arrival is still not possible, however you don't want those anyway.

 

[HappyMan]

You are making this decision with your eyes wide open, knowing what problems you might have. I wish you all the best, man. Hope it all works out.

 

[MamangDudul]

We talked about the prenuptial agreement. It's no problem, we can do it. It's actually good and makes sense.

Because of the "The family wants money from me all the time" subject, I don't know what to say anymore.
So far no-one ever asked me for money. And to be honest, if I open my business there and buy utilities etc. there won't be that amount of money left to give everyone, as I also need to keep some money in case it does not work out and I have to come back here.

I know that you all think they will constantly ask me for money but I will simply not give much, and if I can't make a living there because of that I won't have another choice but flying back here. I already made this clear to my fiancé.

But here, also everyone grabs into my pocket!
I pay so much taxes because I'm single, the weather is bad and the healthcare here is also not good anymore. Recently I went to the dentist and they did not even give me a filling unless I would have paid 200€, and this after I paid 3000€ health insurance for a whole year and I did not even once went to a doctor for the last 12 months.

I know, you think I have no clue how it works in Indonesia with the families etc and maybe you are right, but this is not my concern now.
Fact is: I want to marry this woman and we want to live in Indonesia, so I cannot hide from these problems you pointed out anyways.

We don't want live here for many reasons:

• Not the most welcoming attitude towards Islam
• If we have a mixed kid, it will get bullied and discriminated
• We will not easily find an apartment because when they see her wearing hijab they will reject us

And besides, I have been living here now my whole life. It's enough. I want to live somewhere else now and I feel ready for it. No matter where I go, I will always face problems. Also here life is not easy and many people struggle to get by.

I also wish you all the best and you make a few good points in your post. Iam also from Germany, my wife is not a Muslim but I understand some of the things you are talking about.

I only want to add something to your plans of making a business here. Iam no expert and people maybe already explained this. As far as I know a foreigner can not open a business here. It would have to be your wife who opens the business and you are the employee. In terms of expat laws Indonesia isn't the most friendly country. I don't say that to keep you from coming here since Iam also living here.
And like you said, everywhere you have to face some kind of problems. We just need to be aware of some things.
If you love and trust your wife then it shouldn't be a problem. Just in terms of opening a business or buying a house and stuff like you more or lese have to fully rely on her since the possibilitys for expats are limited.

Ps: and about that prenup/postnup thing. It is not mainly about trusting someone or not. It is simply better and important for your future wife in terms of being protected due to some laws concerning the involvement of expats.

 

[jukung11]

About this thing, I was wondering about the legality of postnup agreements.

Postnups were ruled legal by the Indonesian constitutional court. The problem is not the legality, but the process. As you were told by the Notoraris about it being not fully recognized by law, some catatan sipil tell you to go get a civil court order and then they will change the record. Because everyone needs birth, death, and marriage records and the penalties are huge, the catatan sipil can be one of the worst places for corruption in Indonesia. I remember a few years ago when the head of Surabaya's catatan sipil was caught by the KPK. It is far cheaper and easier to get the prenup rather than postnup. If I were cynical, I would think they just thought you could afford to pay a little extra if you have enough assets that you now have to split them up after marriage.

 

[jukung11]

Because of the "The family wants money from me all the time" subject, I don't know what to say anymore.
So far no-one ever asked me for money. And to be honest, if I open my business there and buy utilities etc. there won't be that amount of money left to give everyone, as I also need to keep some money in case it does not work out and I have to come back here.

I think there is a miscommunication if you think these things are particular to wanting money from a foreign spouse. My posts are more general for Westerners to understand many Indonesian cultures (there is more than 1) and how it applies to family structure, money, and family dynamics. It is not as much about your relationship specifically. There are a lot of cultural values around marriage and money in Indonesia that are just not the norms in western society.

The rest of the post is about MOST Indonesian cultures, not ALL Indonesian cultures. Individuals and families may have different values. There are even cultural conflicts within Indonesia.

#1 Children are expected to take care of parents. I have already written on the retirement system.

Let me get out of the way first, Indonesia is not a gender neutral country. Even the 1976 marriage law I cited earlier has written family roles for the husband and wife.

The tradition for most Indonesian patriarchal cultures was to keep having children until you had a son to take care of the parents when they are older. This lead to a massive population boom. For an Island country with poor soils, it was very bad. In the 1970s-1990s the government instituted a family planning program called "dua anak cukup" (two is enough). After that program, a saying came about that the perfect family was one son and one daughter; one child to take care of you when you are old and one to sell (which pays the bride price for the son to get married). As a westerner, that may be as difficult to read as it is to hear in person, but I still hear it sometimes. Neither you or me is going to change hundreds of years of culture. It usually falls to the son(s) to take care of the parents and the daughter(s) join their husband's family. Many cultures of Indonesia, marriages are negotiated by families. A bride's family is typically "paid back" in some way for the cost of raising a daughter. Many western Indonesian traditions the grooms family gives "gifts" to the bride's family and pays the wedding. These weddings are usually very large and help to establish the social status of both families in their community. In eastern Indonesia, this is an explicit negotiated bride price. Typically $4000-$15000, often paid for in livestock. I posted how this was a central plot point in the movie, Marlina the Murderer in four acts. The larger the bride price announced publicly, the more valuable the woman is in society. Typically this is a "loan" from the bride's parents that the husband pays off over the course of the marriage. Children in Indonesian society are not for the pure joy of having them. They serve a purpose.

Even when the wife was not an only child a power dynamic can come into play. For many Indonesian families, if it is ever a question of resources, the son almost always gets the family resources first since the sons are expected to care for the parents later in life. Indonesian sons can get spoiled as fuck. You have no idea how many women I have met in my life bitter as fuck about that, but then they spoil the shit out of the eldest son too. When an Indonesian daughter can give more money to her family than her brother(s) can, she gains a massive amount of family social status.

These cultural values are good for you to know even if her family doesn't value them. They will be the larger culture you plan to live in. At least you have a chance to understand and discuss them now.

 

[MamangDudul]

Postnups were ruled legal by the Indonesian constitutional court. The problem is not the legality, but the process. As you were told by the Notoraris about it being not fully recognized by law, some catatan sipil tell you to go get a civil court order and then they will change the record. Because everyone needs birth, death, and marriage records and the penalties are huge, the catatan sipil can be one of the worst places for corruption in Indonesia. I remember a few years ago when the head of Surabaya's catatan sipil was caught by the KPK. It is far cheaper and easier to get the prenup rather than postnup. If I were cynical, I would think they just thought you could afford to pay a little extra if you have enough assets that you now have to split them up after marriage.

Oh I get it now, so that's what they meant.

 

[snpark]

Same with Bedouin Muslims in UAE etc
The man can only take another wife if he can support her and it originated from the Bedouin tribes if the woman's husband died like in battle or something she needed someone to take care of her so she was allowed to marry someone else in the tribe but only if that man could support her
Like me in BATS. Lol