Can't marry my fiancé for more than one year now

Magnum92

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Hello,

I have been on this Forum before for a visa/work permit question but unfortunately I lost my password and can’t get it back since I don’t have that Email Adress anymore.

This was my thread back then

I summarize my situations real quick again: I am 28 years old and live in Germany. I visited Indonesia in early 2020 before Covid to meet a woman. I have known her long before and the only reason for my trip there was to find out if we really want to marry.

I came back from Indonesia shortly before all the borders closed in early 2020 and we thought “okay, let’s just wait until everything is normal again“.

During the waiting time of more than one year now, we changed our plan a little bit. We initially wanted to live in Germany but during my waiting time here I figured out that it’s better for our marriage if we live in Indonesia.
since nothing happened for more than 15 months now we decided to stop waiting and find other ways of finding together finally.

It seems that the options are:

We wait until Indonesia issues marriage visas again and I go the normal path to obtain my Kitas. But meanwhile I lost my hope that they ever open again.

In April 2020 they said the border will be closed until September, then they extended it until end of 2020, then a couple of times for 2 more weeks. Now it’s just closed without any information given.

We marry in Germany and move later to Indonesia. As far as I’m informed even Germany is being closed now. The other problem was that she would have to take a German language test for the visa in an institute in Surabaya, Jakarta or Bandung which all 3 were closed for like a year. Now they have allegedly opened again.

Would it be possible to marry in a third country where we both would be allowed to enter (like Turkey) and marry in an Indonesian embassy? Then I could maybe apply for the Kitas since we are officially married?

We are both very sad because we have been waiting for so long now. We waited and waited.

Is there any way that we can marry and live (preferably) in Indonesia? I want to avoid bringing her to Germany because she would not feel comfortable here.

Is there any good solution or hope in sight?

I hope anyone has advice for me.


I kept this all very short to not bore you, but I can answer more detailed to specific questions

makassi
 
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IndoTom

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I was thinking to suggest you get married in Singapore but like many countries you would need to quarantine for 2 weeks in a government facility and get multiple covid test. Probably not a practical solution for you and the wedding guests to do this.
 

gemima

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I don't have advice, it's a tough situation. Lots of people are going through similar right now. I haven't seen my partner of 13 years for more than a year at this stage and we have no idea when it will be possible to see each other. I have another friend here who is in a similar position with her husband. Lots of families are being separated right now and I suppose it's a test of your relationship.
Covid restrictions won't go on forever. There will be a light at the end of the tunnel with the help of vaccines I'm sure.
 

HappyMan

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Yes, you can get married in a third country.

You don't need to do it in an embassy, any marriage that is legal in your own country and in the country where the marriage is performed should be legal here.

You spouse will then need to report your marriage to the Indonesian government within a certain period of time (Anybody?) either via the embassy or via catan sipil.

Yes, you will be eligible for an ITAS immediately (assuming you can gain entry to the country in the first place).

The problem with all of this is getting into that third country and then into Indonesia. Best of luck.
 
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jukung11

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Wow, that was quite the thread I had missed.

You can compare the locations that are accessible to the Indonesian passport here:

Compare that to the current travel restrictions by country.

Then you would have to research the local laws on marriage. Because local civil registries in Indonesia will not normally allow marriage of two different religions, if neither party wants to convert, they usually get married abroad. Singapore has an entire industry focused on providing marriages for Indonesians. I am not sure about the current Singapore travel restrictions since Indonesia/Singapore pulled out of the travel corridor agreements.

UU. No. 23 of 2006 Pasal 37
(1) Perkawinan Warga Negara Indonesia di luar wilayah Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia
wajib dicatatkan pada instansi yang berwenang di negara setempat dan dilaporkan pada
Perwakilan Republik Indonesia.
(2) Apabila negara setempat sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) tidak menyelenggarakan
pencatatan perkawinan bagi Orang Asing, pencatatan dilakukan pada Perwakilan Republik
Indonesia setempat.
(3) Perwakilan Republik Indonesia sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (2) mencatat peristiwa
perkawinan dalam Register Akta Perkawinan dan menerbitkan Kutipan Akta Perkawinan.
(4) Pencatatan perkawinan sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) dan ayat (2) dilaporkan oleh
yang bersangkutan kepada Instansi Pelaksana di tempat tinggalnya paling lambat 30 (tiga
puluh) hari sejak yang bersangkutan kembali ke Indonesia.

You would get married in the foreign country, then register the marriage with the embassy. If the foreign country does not allow for marriage of foreigners, then you would get married at the embassy. When she returns to Indonesia, she would have 30 days to register the marriage with the catatan sipil. I believe if you get married at the embassy instead of the foreign country, Indonesian laws may apply. Since you are muslim you may have to get the N1 through N7 letters, depending on the age of your future spouse. Some foreign countries may also require some of those forms for marriage. Your previous post says you are going to gift a large amount of assets to your spouse for property and business ownership. It is easiest to register your prenuptial agreement with the embassy and catatan sipil ahead of or at the time of marriage.
 

HappyMan

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It is easiest to register your prenuptial agreement with the embassy and catatan sipil ahead of or at the time of marriage.
This is really important, Magnum. If she wants to own property in Indonesia, you need a prenuptial agreement. If she stands to inherit property here she will need it. It is easier and potentially cheaper to get this before marriage if you guys can do it. Otherwise you will have to go through a process to get a retroactive prenuptial made, which in the case of my ex and I involved a judge and was not free or convenient.
 

gemima

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I already thought the same exactly one year ago...

It seems like it can go on for years. It's frustrating.
One year ago there were no vaccines! So I am hopeful that things will improve. But I agree it is very frustrating.
 

Magnum92

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If she wants to own property in Indonesia, you need a prenuptial agreement.

Why? She is Indonesian. It’s her property then not mine. Whatever we will have will only be in her name.

I have never heard of this so I first need to research...
 

snpark

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Why? She is Indonesian. It’s her property then not mine. Whatever we will have will only be in her name.

I have never heard of this so I first need to research...

no offence but if this is the first time you have heard about this then there is a LOT you need to research before you get married - no better time than now to start!

There cculd be serious repurcussions for you both individually and as a couple if you marry without the legal requirements regarding the legal pre nup for property ownership etc for her - not things she gets from you if you divorce, but her own legal entitlements as an Indonesian in Indonesian and not being able to buy or own land in her name anymore or even receive property for example after a family member dies - she is not allowed to inherit things, etc etc etc
 

HappyMan

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Why? She is Indonesian. It’s her property then not mine. Whatever we will have will only be in her name.

I have never heard of this so I first need to research...
My understanding is that the Indonesian Constitution limits permanent ownership of land to Indonesian citizens (a foreigner may hold a lease, even a long term one, but not have actual ownership). As marriage in Indonesia entails entangling the assets of the married couple, a foreigner married to a land owning Indonesian would in some ways have some ownership of that land. The prenuptial agreement prevents this legal problem. It does make a sort of unfortunate sense, if the goal is to jealously guard Indonesia from the rapine and pillage of the lustful foreign masses. 😅

A related problem is the inheritance of land in Indonesia by a foreign citizen (your future children (congratulations!) for example, should they choose citizenship in your country rather than Indonesia). Should your hypothetical foreign citizen children inherit land from your spouse upon said spouse's unfortunate passing (my condolences), said children will have to sell said land within a set period of time. I believe the period of time is one year. This is among the reasons why my own child is likely to choose Indonesian citizenship rather than American.
 
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Magnum92

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So my fiance did not know about this prenuptial thing.
She does not understand how it’s related that she can’t have property or inherit anything.
 

jukung11

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It does make a sort of unfortunate sense, if the goal is to jealously guard Indonesia from the rapine and pillage of the lustful foreign masses.
Some people might be surprised how historically accurate that is. I am writing this for our new German friend to get the historical context of Indonesia’s laws and penalties against foreigner’s participation in various parts of the economy.

Until Indonesian Independence, the Dutch had an institutionalized racial system for the economy. At the top was the white Europeans (mostly Dutch), followed by the mixed race Dutch/Indonesians, followed by the Chinese, and last were native Indonesians. Many of these laws against foreigners were set in the wake of that to strip the colonialists of power, residency, and wealth in Indonesia. Indonesia, then and now, was/is primarily a commodity economy. That ties to land. The constitution of Indonesia specifies that the resources of Indonesia are only for the benefits of the citizens of Indonesia. The law codifying that land can only be owned by a citizen of Indonesia is UU No. 5 1960. The initial law of citizenship for Indonesia was that only a native born male citizens and unwed native born female citizens could pass on citizenship to children. That citizenship law was in effect until 2006. That law stripped land ownership of the Dutch and most of the mixed race children, since most mixed race children had a Dutch father.

Additionally, many industries were nationalized and foreigners were barred from participating in most aspects of the Indonesian economy. This is known as the negative investment list. I know you were looking at starting a business in Indonesia, so that may be useful to you.

Indonesia property law is it is a joint marital property country. ALL PRORPERTY that is owned by one spouse is considered owned by both. Without a prenuptial agreement, the Indonesian native spouse cannot own land and stock in many businesses.

The cheapest procedure is most notaris have form agreements that conform to Indonesian law. If you are entering the marriage with assets, you may want to consult a lawyer. The prenuptial agreement must be in the Indonesian language, applicable under Indonesian law, and registered with the civil registry before or with the marriage certificate. From a cultural perspective, prenuptial agreements are well established in Islam, are not uncommon in Indonesia, and are standard when a foreigner marries an Indonesian. It is an excellent time to discuss expectations future extended family(parents/siblings) financial obligations of the foreign spouse.
 

jukung11

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So my fiance did not know about this prenuptial thing.
She does not understand how it’s related that she can’t have property or inherit anything.

UU Nomor 1 Tahun 1974

BAB VII
HARTA BENDA DALAM PERKAWINAN
Pasal 35
(1) Harta benda yang diperoleh selama perkawinan menjadi harta
bersama.
(2) Harta bawaan dari masing-masing suami dan isteri dan harta benda
yang diperoleh masing-masing sebagai hadiah atau warisan, adalah
dibawah penguasaan masing-masing sepanjang para pihak tidak
menentukan lain.
Pasal 36
(1) Mengenai harta bersama, suami atau isteri dapat bertindak atas
persetujuan kedua belah pihak.
(2) Mengenai harta bawaan masing-masing, suami dan isteri mempunyai
hak sepenuhnya untuk melakukan perbuatan hukum mengenai harta
bendanya.
 

centurion

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no offence but if this is the first time you have heard about this then there is a LOT you need to research before you get married - no better time than now to start!

There cculd be serious repurcussions for you both individually and as a couple if you marry without the legal requirements regarding the legal pre nup for property ownership etc for her - not things she gets from you if you divorce, but her own legal entitlements as an Indonesian in Indonesian and not being able to buy or own land in her name anymore or even receive property for example after a family member dies - she is not allowed to inherit things, etc etc etc
Indonesian spouse can inherit land and receive gifts (in land), and record on her/his own name, as it is not part of the joint marital property. Being married to a foreign citizen. does not change that.
 

HappyMan

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Indonesian spouse can inherit land and receive gifts (in land), and record on her/his own name, as it is not part of the joint marital property. Being married to a foreign citizen. does not change that.
Yes, ayat 2 of pasal 35 that jukung11 posted up clearly states that gifts and inheritances are controlled solely by the receiver unless otherwise agreed by the couple.

I have to say that the ex-wife's lawyer told us otherwise. Perhaps this is an overabundance of caution.

However, it could be argued that the whole issue is one of an overabundance of caution with no need for a prenuptial at all, as the Constitution already clearly states that non-citizens cannot own land. If non-WNI need a prenup to say that we will not share ownership of land, in spite of the fact that the Constitution says that we cannot own land, then it is not much of a stretch to believe that WNI will need a prenup to say that they will not share their gifts/inheritances, in spite of the fact that the UU says they need not share. I'd say the latter is less of a stretch than the former, actually.

Whole thing feels like it is aimed at preventing needy judges from making unfortunate rulings in the favor of powerful foreigners.
 

centurion

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Change the lawyer :)

Cannot be argued as the foreigner would indirectly own the land, through the joint property. And the Constitution does not mention land issues, but the Agrarian law. In Thailand, where is a similar regime exists, the foreign spouse will have to sign a statement where he renounces any claims to the Thai's spouse land.-much more practical.

If your marriage agreement does not mention gifts and inheritance or repeats the clauses from the law, then they are in respective spouse ownership. However, the marriage agreement can specify differently as well, so here you have freedom of agreement.
 

jukung11

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I have seen this play out as often about prohibited business ownership as real estate. Often, parents expect a child to take over a business, but the child can’t if the business is in a prohibited sector and the child married a foreigner without a prenuptial agreement.

Magnum92 said he was planning to open a shop in Indonesia. Most retail is on the negative investment list. His spouse can't legally own that without an asset separation agreement.

And no, the family never asked for money too. Her parents are educated people and doing well.
That doesn't really matter much in the future. Since you were unfamiliar with prenuptial agreements and other aspects of Indonesian society, I am willing to guess you are unfamiliar with the retirement system. I wanted to elaborate that when discussing the asset separation agreement that it is a great time to bring up your future financial obligation to her parents. Indonesia has a very small pension system. The social obligation for most of Indonesia is that children (usually sons first) are to take care of the parents. Many companies and government positions force retirement as soon as the retirement age comes. Currently that is 58 in Indonesia. If she is 28, there is a high probability her parents are approaching retirement age. I did not see you mention she had any siblings, specifically a brother. For most cultures in Indonesia it will fall to you to supplement the parent's pension. Many cultures in Eastern Indonesia eliminate this future obligation for a son-in-law with a negotiated bride price up front.

This is sometime referenced in subtle cultural questions that many foreigners miss the context of. If a future Indonesian woman spouse asks "are you sure you want to marry me, I am from a poor background (and/or) I am an only child?", it often means "are you sure you want to pay for my parents?"
 

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