Art for sale

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Looking at the instagram posted above by El_Goretto where she is sitting next to the 2 paintings:

Im certainly not a specialist but i cant believe someone who paints like that can ask for 50 million per painting... Maybe they are not yet finished but the quality of the painting in the one on the right in particular seems terrible. In both paintings she doesnt seem to be able to paint hands very well.
 
What is funny about that painting is Olla posted this first on her Insta:
This is a painting sold by Monika


Then a few weeks later:

Looking at the instagram posted above by El_Goretto where she is sitting next to the 2 paintings:

Im certainly not a specialist but i cant believe someone who paints like that can ask for 50 million per painting... Maybe they are not yet finished but the quality of the painting in the one on the right in particular seems terrible. In both paintings she doesnt seem to be able to paint hands very well.
 
For many Indonesians I know the idea of copyright, plagiarism or intellectual property is a completely foreign concept. Not being able to use another person's idea to benefit themselves doesn't make any sense as Indonesians have been copying each other since time immemorial. A local business owner sees his competitor use a style of writing, sign or gimmick resulting in increased patronage to his detriment? You can be sure he'll copy it.

For eons culturally, Indonesians have shared or lent or taken a great deal from each other to benefit themselves and the wider community - many Indonesians would consider copying a painting as clever or smart, and would probably do exactly the same if they had the ability to.
 
For many Indonesians I know the idea of copyright, plagiarism or intellectual property is a completely foreign concept. Not being able to use another person's idea to benefit themselves doesn't make any sense as Indonesians have been copying each other since time immemorial. A local business owner sees his competitor use a style of writing, sign or gimmick resulting in increased patronage to his detriment? You can be sure he'll copy it.

For eons culturally, Indonesians have shared or lent or taken a great deal from each other to benefit themselves and the wider community - many Indonesians would consider copying a painting as clever or smart, and would probably do exactly the same if they had the ability to.
Copying, being inspired by, imitating, building on etc... all have their place in art and are accepted in different ways.

Using others artwork to build a following? not claiming it is yours, but also not crediting the original artist is questionable. Taking credit for the work of others is often forgiven on social media.

Selling another persons artwork as your own is a big no no everywhere. It is theft plain and simple.
 
Yes it is important to recognize that an artist has been around for a long time, no matter what mental gymnastics you try to do to justify your position. We are talking about a very distinct style of art.

One artist has painted and sold hundreds of originals, prints and canvases with authentication on all of the top European art sites, and has regularly been on the best sellers lists for years. An artist that has also done many commissions in her style of art.

Bad_azz advertised art for sale on here and when questions were asked was quick to start throwing around comments like my friend is flattered when she is imitated, then lawyer talk, legal disputes, copyright etc. If you are prepared to go out a promote something then you should take some level of responsibility.

And again throwing around different sizes as evidence when artists sell canvasses and prints in different sizes is meaningless.

So you tell me Fastpitch what do YOU see in these two pictures:

Advertised for sale by Olla Manelo through Bad_azz


A painting SOLD by Monika Luniak


Do you see imitation? inspiration? or the exact same painting minus the lower signature area?
Have we uncovered some sort of mystery of the universe where two artists have painted the exact same picture, with identical palette knife markings and brush strokes, using the exact same colours but in different sizes?
You argue like you're bonking this artist. You have no fight in this. Both artist know and it is up to them to work out.

You want to back this artist you swear by, so be it but you also come across as putting some guilt on bad_azz and frankly, that will never fly in this forum.

Removing sigs is normal if someone is offering art prints. Why would someone do that if paint is being used. Sigs can easily be painted over. Even with art prints, why not just remove or change the sig? Entry level photoshop would teach anyone how to do that for an art print, not paint. Even a professional reproduction can remove the sig and keep the painting the same.

This is Indonesia. Perhaps you should start your own bootleg police department. You would be busy day and night for ages or found floating in some river. You could start with me. I have walls full of culturally related Indonesian art prints. None of them would be considered legal. I find them in hotels and upscale restaurants, if the lighting is even, I photograph then. They enter my photoshop, sized, and whatever I want to do to get them ready for print. Some of those hanging have been damaged so I fix that in photoshop. Not brain surgery but I know my way around the program a bit.

There are a lot of painted art on Indonesian streets and a short walk you can find another you would think identical. A smuck wouldn't know the difference and proclaim one a fake when someone that knew something about art would proclaim them both fake since the original is known to be hanging somewhere.

Again, no need to convince anyone here. I am guessing no one cares. The problem lies with the artist or their representavies, agents, promoters, and legal advisors. Not us.
 
Copying, being inspired by, imitating, building on etc... all have their place in art and are accepted in different ways.

Using others artwork to build a following? not claiming it is yours, but also not crediting the original artist is questionable. Taking credit for the work of others is often forgiven on social media.

Selling another persons artwork as your own is a big no no everywhere. It is theft plain and simple.
Many western concepts, laws, ideologies, ideas of ownership etc will never be adopted by Indonesians whether they're supposedly morally or ethically superior or not - this is Indonesia.
 
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You argue like you're bonking this artist. You have no fight in this. Both artist know and it is up to them to work out.

You want to back this artist you swear by, so be it but you also come across as putting some guilt on bad_azz and frankly, that will never fly in this forum.

Removing sigs is normal if someone is offering art prints. Why would someone do that if paint is being used. Sigs can easily be painted over. Even with art prints, why not just remove or change the sig? Entry level photoshop would teach anyone how to do that for an art print, not paint. Even a professional reproduction can remove the sig and keep the painting the same.

This is Indonesia. Perhaps you should start your own bootleg police department. You would be busy day and night for ages or found floating in some river. You could start with me. I have walls full of culturally related Indonesian art prints. None of them would be considered legal. I find them in hotels and upscale restaurants, if the lighting is even, I photograph then. They enter my photoshop, sized, and whatever I want to do to get them ready for print. Some of those hanging have been damaged so I fix that in photoshop. Not brain surgery but I know my way around the program a bit.

There are a lot of painted art on Indonesian streets and a short walk you can find another you would think identical. A smuck wouldn't know the difference and proclaim one a fake when someone that knew something about art would proclaim them both fake since the original is known to be hanging somewhere.

Again, no need to convince anyone here. I am guessing no one cares. The problem lies with the artist or their representavies, agents, promoters, and legal advisors. Not us.
That is a long post without answering my question to you regarding a painting advertised for sale here.

I stopped talking in this thread. You quoted me and brought me back into it.

I am not defending anyone, I am not accusing anyone. I am pointing out that the artwork advertised appears to be EXACTLY the same.

Yes, I will stand up and point out something if it appears to be questionable, so what.
 
Many western concepts, laws, ideologies, ideas of ownership etc will never be adopted by Indonesians whether they're supposedly morally or ethically superior or not - this is Indonesia.
Oh yes, not just Indonesia, many cultures have similar ideas.
The 'this is x country argument' kind of falls apart when your try to sell things to an international audience.
It also makes things harder for the talented and original professional artists here.
 
Many western concepts, laws, ideologies, ideas of ownership etc will never be adopted by Indonesians whether they're supposedly morally or ethically superior or not - this is Indonesia.
I find this extremely generalizing, reducing and condescending to Indonesians to presume to know what they will or will not do and what ethical or moral standards they hold themselves to.

I dislike those "this is Indonesia" comments to excuse unethical behaviors. And in this particular case, while not perfect, protection of intellectual property and trademark is alive and well in Indonesia, I can assure you. Once again, very condescending.

And I doubt you will find many people here who will not object about their work being stolen by someone else to promote themselves.

And finally, as a customer, if I was buying, unknowingly, an artwork as advertised in the first post and I got what was shared on instagram (the one where she is standing next to it), I would be pretty pissed.

Also let's not forget the fact that Olla is pretending she has painted stuff that she has not (see her comments about the paint still being wet).
 
I find this extremely generalizing, reducing and condescending to Indonesians to presume to know what they will or will not do and what ethical or moral standards they hold themselves to.

I dislike those "this is Indonesia" comments to excuse unethical behaviors. And in this particular case, while not perfect, protection of intellectual property and trademark is alive and well in Indonesia, I can assure you. Once again, very condescending.

And I doubt you will find many people here who will not object about their work being stolen by someone else to promote themselves.

And finally, as a customer, if I was buying, unknowingly, an artwork as advertised in the first post and I got what was shared on instagram (the one where she is standing next to it), I would be pretty pissed.

Also let's not forget the fact that Olla is pretending she has painted stuff that she has not (see her comments about the paint still being wet).
Yeah, there are some efforts to strengthen copyright violations here concerning intellectual property but, it is a pretty slow moving train. Ask any music artist, they will tell you there is still no actual protection. Look at all the bootleg products and copied vids and cds you can easily pick up openly on the streets or even in some malls. Maybe you won't buy them but most will.

As for the paintings in question, are they not both advertized as paintings? That could only mean both painted them and one could very well still be wet or that one artist is buying the other's work and reselling it. They say paintings, not prints.

Really, who cares about the problems these artist are having. It us their oroblem to sort out and these opinions in this forum mean jack to their claims. I imagine that there are many that think they have some original art hanging on their walls or setting on shelves that would be surprised to find out the truth. It isn't just Indonesia, art bootlegs and copies are sold all over the world and sone to very knowledgeable art collectors.

I don't care about these artist nor these paintings. I care more that a long time contributor to these forums gets attacted for going out of her way with good intentions of helping a long time friend. "New Members" should be mindfull that there are members here that have been here since the beginning and have at least established Forum friendships and respect for each other. New members are certainly welcome but perhaps best to start without attacking someone. People will bite back. I do.
 
I find this extremely generalizing, reducing and condescending to Indonesians to presume to know what they will or will not do and what ethical or moral standards they hold themselves to.

I dislike those "this is Indonesia" comments to excuse unethical behaviors. And in this particular case, while not perfect, protection of intellectual property and trademark is alive and well in Indonesia, I can assure you. Once again, very condescending.

And I doubt you will find many people here who will not object about their work being stolen by someone else to promote themselves.

And finally, as a customer, if I was buying, unknowingly, an artwork as advertised in the first post and I got what was shared on instagram (the one where she is standing next to it), I would be pretty pissed.

Also let's not forget the fact that Olla is pretending she has painted stuff that she has not (see her comments about the paint still being wet).
So many points I agree with @El_Goretto that I don't know where to start (or even if I want to start). :ROFLMAO:
On the topic of the thread, I've read all posts with a lot of interest and the whole thing left me with mix feelings.
I would like to thank @IGI to have stepped in and to have pointed at the fact that some explanation should be given to clarify why two very, very similar art work seem to have two claimed owners.
However I would also like to stress the fact that I believe that @Bad_azz shouldn't be blamed for anything else than having failed to perhaps better check something she promoted here before posting it. She is a genuine person, that we have "known" for years and I believe she posted in good faith.
I would be very curious to have Olla and Monika explaining us more about it and would be happy to help them in any way I can to help clarifying the obvious questions raised by the thread. I don't think that burying the thread would be wise or a service to the community anyway, but letting it without any explanation from them wouldn't be good for them either..

As someone already pointed at I believe that by now both side may be aware of the controversy. If any of them want to step in, in whatever language they feel confortable with they should do so. I don't speak German but can help in any translation of bahasa Indonesia if necessary and many of us other than me are also fluent in bahasa Indonesia or are native indonesian anyway.
 
@all forum users
We have decided to lock this thread for the following reasons:

1. The evidence has been presented by forum members, and it is appreciated, however, neither artist is a forum member, and neither is here to give their side of the story.
2. The thread is devolving into various tangents, some of which will undoubtedly need further moderation.

If the OP, or either artist wishes to re-open this thread at a later date, they can do so by sending a direct message to the moderators.
 
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