Indonesia set to introduce strict new law banning sex outside of marriage

Interesting to see Philippines on that list. Perhaps people could look to them to see how these things work in practice in this part of the world.
Also, how do you prove adultery without photographic evidence (and if you took photographic evidence you could be prosecuted under the pornography law :ROFLMAO: ).
The Philippines doesn't have legal divorce either unless they have changed the law in the past couple of years.

Adultery has historically been hard to prove. I don't think anyone is trying to make it easier.
 
Yes, indeed. I remember a case of a Filipino lady who tried to get an official divorce from a Japanese man who had left her 15 years before and had not heard from him since. It was not granted.
 
In the Philippines it is clearly stated in the constitution the separation between the church and the state:
The 1987 Constitution of the Philippines declares: The separation of Church and State shall be inviolable. (Article II, Section 6), and, No law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed. No religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. (Article III, Section 5).....

Indonesia has a state ideology "pancasila" which is declared in the constitution as the state ideology.
But it is different with the constitution in Philippines, as it has never been any statement to separate between the state and the religion.
That is why we have seen that the sharia law has been implemented in Aceh and it is not against the constitution.
Again sex before marriage in the Philippines, well you just need to find out why Angeles City in the Philippines, is very famous destination among tourist. It could only be matched by Pataya Beach, Phuket and/or PatPong in Bangkok. Also Philippines is one of the famous destination in south east Asia among pensioners.
Cohabitation has quadrupled in incidence among young adult women in the Philippines, rising from 6% in 1993 to 24% in 2013 (what about now 2022).
On the contrary to Indonesia, Philipines does not have a history where a group of people try to impose the religious based law to the state.
 
On the contrary to Indonesia, Philipines does not have a history where a group of people try to impose the religious based law to the state.
You don't feel that laws that forbid premarital sex and forbid legal divorces came from religion?
 
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Again sex before marriage in the Philippines, well you just need to find out why Angeles City in the Philippines, is very famous destination among tourist. It could only be matched by Pataya Beach, Phuket and/or PatPong in Bangkok. Also Philippines is one of the famous destination in south east Asia among pensioners.
Cohabitation has quadrupled in incidence among young adult women in the Philippines, rising from 6% in 1993 to 24% in 2013 (what about now 2022).
The Philippines have a population of 113 million people. There are currently an estimated 14 to 15 million solo parents in the Philippines, 95% of whom are women, according to a World Health Organization-funded study by the Department of Health and the University of the Philippines-National Institutes of Health.

Interesting stats for a country that doesn't allow premarital sex and divorce. What do the experts (anthropologists) make out of this?

For comparison, Indonesia has a population of 276 million people and according to kemenpppa there are 7 million single mothers (2016).

On the contrary to Indonesia, Philipines does not have a history where a group of people try to impose the religious based law to the state.
If only you knew how many laws are in place, all over the world, that were made by people whose morals and ethics are based upon religious traditions from hundreds or thousands of years ago.
 
In the Philippines it is clearly stated in the constitution the separation between the church and the state:
The 1987 Constitution of the Philippines declares: The separation of Church and State shall be inviolable. (Article II, Section 6), and, No law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed. No religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. (Article III, Section 5).....

Indonesia has a state ideology "pancasila" which is declared in the constitution as the state ideology.
But it is different with the constitution in Philippines, as it has never been any statement to separate between the state and the religion.
That is why we have seen that the sharia law has been implemented in Aceh and it is not against the constitution.
Again sex before marriage in the Philippines, well you just need to find out why Angeles City in the Philippines, is very famous destination among tourist. It could only be matched by Pataya Beach, Phuket and/or PatPong in Bangkok. Also Philippines is one of the famous destination in south east Asia among pensioners.
Cohabitation has quadrupled in incidence among young adult women in the Philippines, rising from 6% in 1993 to 24% in 2013 (what about now 2022).
On the contrary to Indonesia, Philipines does not have a history where a group of people try to impose the religious based law to the state.
The last paragraph is way off. The Philippines does have such a history, with the Catholic Church.
 
The Philippines have a population of 113 million people. There are currently an estimated 14 to 15 million solo parents in the Philippines, 95% of whom are women, according to a World Health Organization-funded study by the Department of Health and the University of the Philippines-National Institutes of Health.

Interesting stats for a country that doesn't allow premarital sex and divorce. What do the experts (anthropologists) make out of this?

For comparison, Indonesia has a population of 276 million people and according to kemenpppa there are 7 million single mothers (2016).


If only you knew how many laws are in place, all over the world, that were made by people whose morals and ethics are based upon religious traditions from hundreds or thousands of years ago.
Religious traditions thousands years ago were referring to crusade. State view on religious hundreds or thousands of years ago are entirely different with the 21st centuries. It might fit at that particular time referring to thousands of years ago. However the separation between the state and religion evolve keep moving forward rather than backward in line with human civilisation.

Nowadays we could see happen the law like in this article still happen in this 21st centuries. This article below is still quite recent, e.g Nov 2022. Not to mention the recent development in Iran.

"Afghanistan's supreme leader has ordered judges to fully enforce aspects of Islamic law that include public executions, stonings, floggings and the amputation of limbs for thieves, the Taliban's chief spokesperson said. 14 Nov 2022".
 
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... However the separation between the state and religion evolve keep moving forward rather than backward in line with human civilisation...

Nowadays we could see happen the law like in this article still happen in this 21st centuries. This article below is still quite recent, e.g Nov 2022. Not to mention the recent development in Iran.

"Afghanistan's supreme leader has ordered judges to fully enforce aspects of Islamic law that include public executions, stonings, floggings and the amputation of limbs for thieves, the Taliban's chief spokesperson said. 14 Nov 2022".

Secularism is neutral. Its application, seen by you as a universal good, is only as good as the nation-state's/regime's intentions. It happens to be an effective way to govern a modern society when used to protect religious minorities. China is among the world's most secular nations. It routinely rounds up people with "undesirable" religious beliefs, closes their places of worship, edits their holy books, and sees their faiths as ideological competitors rather than a protected institution as in the United States.

China also routinely tortures and executes thousands of people. If what you wrote were true, China would be an enlightened beacon of secular human progress. Instead, secularism is used as a weapon to oppress all ideologies other than the state approved propaganda.

"Progressive" nations with lofty secular ideals have their own taboos, just as Muslims in Indonesia do. A lesbian in Norway is facing up to three years in jail not because of her identity as a lesbian, but because she "misgendered" a transgender woman and said he couldn't be a lesbian. She didn't harass him, she didn't cause any injury as best as the average person can see. But, because the transgender woman represents a protected class in modern, progressed, and thoroughly secular Western societies a taboo around this issue has crept into the legal framework.

And this isn't some isolated case. Taboos placing limits on free speech, i.e. Western blasphemy, crop up every bit as much as they do in Indonesia. Look, Indonesia has its opportunities. It ain't perfect, far from it. Even I don't think they should criminalize what is a civil matter. But I also don't think this makes them backwards.
 
Secularism is neutral. Its application, seen by you as a universal good, is only as good as the nation-state's/regime's intentions. It happens to be an effective way to govern a modern society when used to protect religious minorities. China is among the world's most secular nations. It routinely rounds up people with "undesirable" religious beliefs, closes their places of worship, edits their holy books, and sees their faiths as ideological competitors rather than a protected institution as in the United States.

China also routinely tortures and executes thousands of people. If what you wrote were true, China would be an enlightened beacon of secular human progress. Instead, secularism is used as a weapon to oppress all ideologies other than the state approved propaganda.

"Progressive" nations with lofty secular ideals have their own taboos, just as Muslims in Indonesia do. A lesbian in Norway is facing up to three years in jail not because of her identity as a lesbian, but because she "misgendered" a transgender woman and said he couldn't be a lesbian. She didn't harass him, she didn't cause any injury as best as the average person can see. But, because the transgender woman represents a protected class in modern, progressed, and thoroughly secular Western societies a taboo around this issue has crept into the legal framework.

And this isn't some isolated case. Taboos placing limits on free speech, i.e. Western blasphemy, crop up every bit as much as they do in Indonesia. Look, Indonesia has its opportunities. It ain't perfect, far from it. Even I don't think they should criminalize what is a civil matter. But I also don't think this makes them backwards.
Have you ever heard or read the case like this in China, Norway ?
Afghanistan's supreme leader has ordered judges to fully enforce aspects of Islamic law that include public executions, stonings, floggings and the amputation of limbs for thieves, the Taliban's chief spokesperson said. 14 Nov 2022"
 
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Have you ever heard or read this case like this in China...
Afghanistan's supreme leader has ordered judges to fully enforce aspects of Islamic law that include public executions, stonings, floggings and the amputation of limbs for thieves, the Taliban's chief spokesperson said. 14 Nov 2022"

Baby, they harvest peoples' organs and drop you with a single bullet. What are you going on about? Is it because it's "da Islams" that you're riled up and unable to see that authoritarian brutality is authoritarian brutality regardless of whether or not it is informed by religious fanaticism.
 
Baby, they harvest peoples' organs and drop you with a single bullet. What are you going on about? Is it because it's "da Islams" that you're riled up and unable to see that authoritarian brutality is authoritarian brutality regardless of whether or not it is informed by religious fanaticism.
Entirely different nature. Harvesting people organs happened in other counties. That is criminal gang benefiting from vulnerable people making money. It is not an official punishment from the state made by the judges.
This is an example of UN report
Human trafficking for the purposes of organ removal: UNODC regional consultation addresses one of the least known but growing forms of trafficking worldwide
Please quote any chapter or article in Chinese law that could be used by the judge allowing that sentence.
Death sentence by firing squad, lethal injection is still used by other civilised nations so nothing unusual.
 
Entirely different nature. Harvesting people organs happened in other counties. That is criminal gang benefiting from vulnerable people making money not official punishment from state.
Please quote any chapter or article in Chinese law that could be used by the judge allowing that sentence.
Death sentence by firing squad, lethal injection is still used by other civilised nations so nothing unusual.

A simple Google search would have yielded this information. Please don't bother with "but they don't! it isn't on the books!" when they really, really do regardless of whatever their opaque police state claims they don't. It's pretty amusing to me that you'll carry water for an authoritarian regime, ostensibly because it's secular (?), but you're beside yourself to tut tut Indonesia for an up to one year penalty for first degee nudey grudey.


From the UN, in case you want something more recent.

 
A simple Google search would have yielded this information. Please don't bother with "but they don't! it isn't on the books!" when they really, really do regardless of whatever their opaque police state claims they don't. It's pretty amusing to me that you'll carry water for an authoritarian regime, ostensibly because it's secular (?), but you're beside yourself to tut tut Indonesia for an up to one year penalty for first degee nudey grudey.


From the UN, in case you want something more recent.

It is not an official sentence written in the law is it ?? The fact that executioners were diverting from the law for money (for instance) is another matter.
Human organ selling is very profitable business and there are a lot of incentive of doing that for evil individuals.
The one we are referring to is official sentenced mentioned in the criminal code that could be used by the judges.
 
Back to the topic at hand, to get this back in line with the thread we're dealing with(and because the mods will move that needle regardless of what we say or think in this thread), we're probably in agreement that secularism is the best way to handle the institution of religion in a modern state. We are possibly (?) in agreement that Indonesia is not currently a secular state, but perhaps has the potential to become one and to use those potential benefits wisely.

As of now, Indonesia does not seem to making strides toward this, and that is because of its state ideology. It seems to me that your true obstacle is not religion, nor Islam in particular. It's Pancasila.
 
Back to the topic at hand, to get this back in line with the thread we're dealing with(and because the mods will move that needle regardless of what we say or think in this thread), we're probably in agreement that secularism is the best way to handle the institution of religion in a modern state. We are possibly (?) in agreement that Indonesia is not currently a secular state, but perhaps has the potential to become one and to use those potential benefits wisely.

As of now, Indonesia does not seem to making strides toward this, and that is because of its state ideology. It seems to me that your true obstacle is not religion, nor Islam in particular. It's Pancasila.
I completely agree with this. State and religion will need a clear separation e.g. secularism. This has also been opinion by majority of experts.
 
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I completely agree with this. State and religion will need a clear separation e.g. secularism. This has also been opinion by majority of experts.

And so we've come full circle.

My point of view is that religion isn't the only institution, and it isn't the only institution that unduly influences the state. Europeans and their colonies established secular societies in reaction to centuries of misrule from a collusion of church and state. That doesn't mean that it's the only institution that needs to be kept in check, nor that nation-states borne from this atmosphere are inherently somehow more advanced.

Muslim-majority societies are newbies when it comes to secularism. My co-religionists, for the most part, are not quite yet ready for it. And truth be told, it took a VERY long time for my ancestors to develop the concept and have it guide their nations. It's a process, we cannot drag people kicking and screaming toward it. It also isn't always used well, which is what I wanted to impress upon you with mentioning China.

Secularism works for a society because it protects the minority. That is how it engenders the kind of stability necessary for modern states to properly function. To get there, though, the people need to see its benefits first hand. That takes time.
 
USA has been independent for 246 years, yet even today the state of Indiana still prohibits the sale of alcohol on Sunday morning, despite the constitution specifically saying no law respecting an establishment of religion should be made. Several years ago it was prohibited the entire Sunday. It is obvious that they don’t want people to show up drunk in church, or not show up at all.

Just this year the Supreme Court overturned its long-standing decision on women’s right to have an abortion, after the Republican party put 3 more Catholic justices on the court. If you think this has nothing to do with religion, I have a bridge to sell you.

If USA who has centuries’ worth of experience in secular democracy can do this garbage, Indonesia who only had true democracy since 1998 is certainly prone to these issues.

Having said that, articles 411 and 412 are actually much milder than expected, because it’s “delik aduan” or complaint offense. It’s an interesting concept in Indonesian law where a crime is only prosecutable if it’s based on a report or complaint from certain people, and the plaintiff has the full power to withdraw it. In this case the immediate family (spouse, parents, and children) of a person is given the legal power to prosecute extramarital relationships. The police can’t do anything without a formal report from the family. I think religious hardliners would want it to be a straight criminal offense that doesn’t require a formal complaint.
 
Having said that, articles 411 and 412 are actually much milder than expected, because it’s “delik aduan” or complaint offense. It’s an interesting concept in Indonesian law where a crime is only prosecutable if it’s based on a report or complaint from certain people, and the plaintiff has the full power to withdraw it. In this case the immediate family (spouse, parents, and children) of a person is given the legal power to prosecute extramarital relationships. The police can’t do anything without a formal report from the family. I think religious hardliners would want it to be a straight criminal offense that doesn’t require a formal complaint.

This somehow conveniently escaped nearly all the western media outlets. I guess a headline of "All Extra-marital Sex in Indonesia to remain legal unless reported by an immediate relative" is not click-baity enough.

Also, the immediate fingering of "religion", or worse a "particular religion" as a culprit shows a lack of understanding of Indonesia. First of all, regardless of religion, Indonesia is a very conservative country. A majority of Indonesians of all religions are very much against extra-marital sex, and also support it being illegal. But that's not even the point. This bill has very little to do with religion, and very much with a country becoming more totalitarian and giving itself more power to intervene in people's life.
 
This somehow conveniently escaped nearly all the western media outlets. I guess a headline of "All Extra-marital Sex in Indonesia to remain legal unless reported by an immediate relative" is not click-baity enough.

Also, the immediate fingering of "religion", or worse a "particular religion" as a culprit shows a lack of understanding of Indonesia. First of all, regardless of religion, Indonesia is a very conservative country. A majority of Indonesians of all religions are very much against extra-marital sex, and also support it being illegal. But that's not even the point. This bill has very little to do with religion, and very much with a country becoming more totalitarian and giving itself more power to intervene in people's life.
I agree that it’s not a particular religion, rather it’s religion in general.

Religion is not necessarily bad. At a personal level it can bring you peace and give you a better sense of purpose. The problem is when religion gets mixed with government, where it always turns into identity politics. Religion in government is not about solving problems, it’s about enforcing a particular value.

I think all countries have a tendency to be over-regulated over time. Legislation is the lazy way to show that you’re trying to tackle a problem. America, the supposed “land of the free”, has so many laws that the average person breaks at least three of them a day. It is also the country with the highest number of prisoners in the world, even higher than China with 4 times the population. Indonesia is heading the same direction, which means imposing penalties to more stuff.
 
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